INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY HEARINGS BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES NINETY-FIFTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION SEPTEMBER 27, 28, AND DECEMBER 29, 1978 VOLUME V Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Assassinations U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 35-379 0 WASHINGTON: 1979 For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C. 20402 Stock Number 052-070-04907-3 SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS LOUIS STOKES, Ohio, Chairman RICHARDSON PREYER, North Carolina SAMUEL L. DEVINE, Ohio WALTER E. FAUNTROY, STEWART B. McKINNEY, Connecticut District of Columbia CHARLES THONE, Nebraska YVONNE BRATHWAITE BURKE, California HAROLD S. SAWYER, Michigan CHRISTOPHER J. DODD, Connecticut HAROLD E. FORD, Tennessee FLOYD J. FITHIAN, Indiana ROBERT W. EDGAR, Pennsylvania Subcommittee on the Subcommittee on the Assassination of Assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. John F. Kennedy WALTER E. FAUNTROY, Chairman RICHARDSON PREYER, Chairman HAROLD E. FORD YVONNE BRATHWAITE BURKE FLOYD J. FITHIAN CHRISTOPHER J. DODD ROBERT W. EDGAR CHARLES THONE STEWART B. McKINNEY HAROLD S. SAWYER LOUIS STOKES, ex officio LOUIS STOKES, ex officio SAMUEL L. DEVINE, ex officio SAMUEL L. DEVINE, ex officio (II) CONTENTS September 27, 1978: Page Narration by G. Robert Blakey, chief counsel and staff director...1 Testimony of Lewis McWillie, Las Vegas, Nev.......................2 Narration by G. Robert Blake, chief counsel and staff director..240 Testimony of Jose Aleman .......................................301 September 28, 1978: Testimony of Santos Trafficante ................................346 Testimony Ralph Salerno ........................................378 Testimony of Judge Burt W. Griffin .............................471 December 29, 1978: Narration by Prof. G. Robert Blakey, chief counsel and staff director ................................................................499 Testimony of: Prof. Mark Weiss, presently of the Department of Computer Science of Queens College of the City University of New York and Ernest Aschkenasy, assistant to Prof. Mark Weiss..................555 H. B. McLain, police officer, Dallas Police Department, Dallas, Tex ......................................................617 AFTERNOON SESSION Narration by Prof. G. Robert Blakey, chief counsel and staff director....641 Testimony of Dr. James Barger, chief scientist, and man in charge of acoustical analysis at Bolt, Beranek & Newman, Inc......................645 Final comments by Prof. G. Robert Blakey, chief counsel and staff director ...............................................................690 Closing remarks by Chairman"Louis Stokes" ...............................697 (III) INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1978 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS, Washington, D.C The committee met at 9:35 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room .345, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Richardson Preyer, presiding. Present: Representatives Preyer, Stokes, Dodd, Fithian, Ford, Edgar, Devine, and Sawyer. Present also: G. Robert Blakey, chief counsel; G. Cornwell, deputy chief counsel; D. Purdy, staff counsel; Elizabeth Berning, chief clerk; I. Charles Mathews, special counsel; S. Jonathan Blackner, staff counsel; Mr. J. McDonald, staff counsel; and Howard Shapiro, attorney. Mr. PREYER. The committee will come to order. The Chair recognizes Mr. Blakey. NARRATION BY G. ROBERT BLAKEY, CHIEF COUNSEL AND STAFF DIRECTOR Mr. BLAKEY. Thank you, Congressman Preyer. During yesterday's hearings, the committee heard a report on a computer survey of Jack Ruby's telephone calls in 1963. One conclusion that seemed to flow from it is that Jack Ruby must have had reason to call a number of individuals who are reportedly connected to the hierarchy of organized crime, the American mafia. Since there is no way of being certain of the topic of the conversation, what is known just from the fact of a phone call or calls is itself not certain. In some cases, we have the testimony of the persons called. Generally they either don't remember being called by Ruby at all, or it was about the AGVA, American Guild of Variety Artists, dispute, or whatever. In the committee's final report, the Ruby associates, that is, those who have been identified by the telephone survey or by other means as in some way connected to Jack Ruby will be examined in detail. But to illustrate the investigative process the committee has followed in this important area, one of Ruby's associates has been selected for public examination at this hearing this morning. That associate is Lewis J. McWillie who was in 1963, as he is today, a Las Vegas casino employee. The committee's investigation has shown that Mr. McWillie's friendship with Jack Ruby goes back to the fourties, in Dallas. Since (1) 2 that time, Mr. McWillie has worked in gambling casinos in Havana, Cuba, as well as Las Vegas, Nev. Mr. McWillie has entered under the rules of the committee a specific request that there be no photographic coverage of his appearance and no electronic coverage. That means no one is to photograph or keep lights on or use any tape recorder to record Mr. McWillie's voice or face. Mr. Chairman, it would be appropriate if an order be entered into that effect. Mr. PREYER. Pursuant to rule 16 which reads in pertinent part, at the request of any witness who does not wish to be subjected to radio, television or still photography coverage, all lenses shall be covered and all microphones used for coverage turned off. At this time, the Chair directs that all lenses be covered and that all microphones be turned off. Mr. BLAKEY. It would be appropriate at this time, Mr. Chairman, to call Lewis J. McWillie. Mr. PREYER. The committee calls Lewis McWillie. TESTIMONY OF LEWIS McWILLIE, LAS VEGAS, NEV. Mr. PREYER. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. McWillie. Do you solemnly swear the evidence you are about to give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, sir. Mr. PREYER. Mr. McWillie, pursuant to your request, all microphones and lenses, broadcasting equipment, have been cut off. The Chair recognizes counsel Donald Purdy for questioning of this witness. Mr. PURDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. McWillie, what is your full name and where do you live? Mr. MCWILLIE. Lewis J. McWillie. Mr. PURDY. Where do you live? Mr. McWILLIE Las Vegas, Nev. Mr. PURDY. How long have you lived there? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, off and on since 1963. Mr. PURDY. What is your present occupation? Mr. MCWILLIE. I work in a gambling house. Mr. PURDY. Prior to your present employment, where did you work? Mr. McWILLIE. Binion's Horse Shoe Club. Mr. PURDY. Have you been involved in working in gambling casinos since you moved to Las Vegas in 1963? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, sir. Mr. PURDY. For how many years have you been involved in gambling casinos and gambling operations throughout the country? Mr. MCWILLIE. I would say 46 years. Mr. PURDY. In what cities have you been involved in gambling operations or casinos? Mr. McWILLIE. Oh, what cities? Mr. PURDY. Yes, sir. Mr. McWILLIE. In this country? Mr. PURDY. Or in other countries. Mr. MCWILLIE. Well, I started off in Memphis, Tenn., and then I was in Mississippi. 3 Mr. PURDY. Approximately when? Please give the years in which you were in those cities also. Mr. MCWILLIE. Oh, I would say Memphis, 1932-36. Mr. PURDY. What city were you working in gambling casinos after that? Mr. McWILLIE. Prior to that? Mr. PURDY. After that. Mr. McWILLIE. After that? Mr. PURDY. Subsequent to 1936? Mr. McWILLIE. Then I was in Jackson, Miss. after that. Mr. PURDY. How long were you working and living in Jackson, Miss.? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, a short while, and then in Osyka, Miss. Mr. PURDY. Were you also involved in gambling there? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes sir. Mr. PURDY. When did. you leave there and where did you go? Mr. McWILLIE. I left there, lets see, I would say 1939 or 1940. I don't know exactly. Mr. PURDY. What cities did you work in since then? Mr. McWILLIE. Dallas. Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling in Dallas? Mr. McWILLIE. I was a dealer there, yes. Mr. PURDY. During what years did you live in Dallas? Mr. McWILLIE. I would say from 1940 to 1958. Mr. PURDY. Where did you go after you lived in Dallas? Mr. McWILLIE. After I left Dallas? Mr. PURDY. Yes. Mr. McWILLIE. I went to Cuba. Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling in Cuba? Mr. McWILLIE. I managed the Tropicana Night Club. Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes sir. Mr. PURDY. Subsequent to your work in Cuba, where did you move to? Mr. McWILLIE. Subsequent. That means afterwards? Mr. PURDY. Yes. Mr. McWILLIE. I went to Miami and stayed until the first of June. Mr. PURDY. The first of June of what year? Mr. McWILLIE. 1961. Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling in Miami? Mr. McWILLIE. No. Mr. PURDY. Where did you live after you left Miami? Mr. McWILLIE. After I left Miami I went to Lake Tahoe. Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling in Lake Tahoe? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, I was a pit boss. Mr. PURDY. When did you leave Lake Tahoe? Mr. MCWILLIE. I left Lake Tahoe in September of 1961. Mr. PURDY. Did you move to Las Vegas from Lake Tahoe? Mr. McWILLIE. I moved to Reno. Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling in Reno? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes sir. Mr. PURDY. How long were you in Reno? 4 Mr. McWILLIE. 1961. I left there, let's see, right before Christmas of 1963, I believe. Mr. PURDY. And you moved to Las Vegas? Mr. McWILLIE- No, I went back to Miami to visit with my mother. Mr. PURDY. How long were you there? Mr. McWILLIE. Oh, 3 weeks. Mr. PURDY. Where did you go after you visited Miami? Mr. McWILLIE. I went back to Las Vegas. Mr. PURDY. Have you lived in Las Vegas since? Mr. McWILLIE. Off and on yes. Mr. PURDY. You have been involved in gambling casinos while you have been in Las Vegas? Mr. McWILLIE. Well the first, you want me to tell you the casinos? Mr. PURDY. I don't think we need to cover the specific casinos at this time. Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, I was involved in casino work. Mr. PURDY. What has been the nature of your involvement in casino work over these years? Mr. McWILLIE. Working in the gambling part of it, overseeing the gambling. Mr. PURDY. Mr. McWillie, what were the circumstances sur- rounding your first encounter with Jack Ruby? Mr. McWILLIE. What were the circumstances? Mr. PURDY. Yes, how did you meet Jack Ruby? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I told you that in this. I met him in a restaurant. Mr. PURDY. Approximately when? Mr. McWILLIE. I would say 1951. Mr. PURDY. Someone introduced you to him in a restaurant in Dallas in 1951? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes sir. Mr. PURDY. Do you remember who introduced you? Mr. McWILLIE. He introduced himself to me. Mr. PURDY. He just walked up to you? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I noticed him at the counter. We went into this restaurant every night to eat and three or four nights he was at the counter and staring at fellows and myself and I asked someone who he was and I don't know, one of them knew him or not, they said he had a night club or something. Anyway, about the third or fourth night when we got up to leave he walked over and introduced himself to me and I said nice to meet you and what do you want, Mr. Ruby? And, he went on to tell me about he was having trouble with his night club and had some kind of curfew put on him and I asked him, I said, Mr. Ruby, you are Jewish, aren't you, and he said, yes. I said well, there is a gentleman here in town by the name of Julius Schepps that might be able to help you, if there is nothing bad wrong with you, so I suggested that he go see Mr. Schepps, and he did, and he seemed to get his trouble straightened out. Mr. PURDY. Mr. Schepps was able to help Jack Ruby? Mr. McWILLIE. Evidently, because he didn't have any more trouble. 5 Mr. PURDY. What was the nature of your next few meetings with Jack Ruby. How did you happen to see him again after he came up and introduced himself? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, he called me on the phone and he thanked me and I met him back in the restaurant, and from then on he was just around me every time he got a chance he would be around. Mr. PURDY. How would you characterize your relationship with Jack Ruby in the 1950's in Dallas? Mr. McWILLIE. 1950's, I wasn't around him a real lot, you might say, he would come out to my apartment and swim in the pool and he was a kind of a leech, you might say. Mr. PURDY. Kind of a leech? Mr. McWILLIE. Leech. And he was just a hard fellow to get rid of. Mr. PURDY. You say he came over uninvited? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, he came over uninvited after so long a time and he would hang around the pool everyday and swim and have dinner with me and different things. Mr. PURDY. Did you ever have to ask him to leave? Mr. McWILLIE. I don't recall. I could have. I don't recall it, though. Mr. PURDY. Were you and Jack Ruby friends during the 1950's? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, we were friends. Mr. PURDY. Were you aware that Jack Ruby considered you one of his closest friends? Mr. McWILLIE. I would have to say so, yes, on account of the favors I had done him. Mr. PURDY. What was the reason? Mr. McWILLIE. The favors I have done him. Mr. PURDY. So he liked you because you had done favors for him? Mr. McWILLIE. I helped him. Mr. PURDY. How had you helped him other than getting Mr. Julius Schepps to help him? Did you help him in any other way? Mr. McWILLIE. I helped him with, he had a union problem, he called me in Las Vegas in the early part of 1963. Mr. PURDY. We will go into that in more detail in a little while. Mr. McWILLIE. All right. Mr. PURDY. Were you aware that Jack Ruby included you on a list of people who might dislike him? Mr. McWILLIE. He put me on a list of people that might dislike him? Mr. PURDY. Yes. Mr. McWILLIE. No, I am not. Mr. PURDY. Was there any reason that you could think of that Jack Ruby might think that you disliked him? Mr. McWILLIE. No way. Mr. PURDY. Did Jack Ruby idolize you? Mr. McWILLIE. In a sort of way I would think so, yes. Mr. PURDY. Why did he idolize you? Mr. McWILLIE. I guess because I had helped him keep his busi- ness open. Mr. PURDY. What contacts, if any, did you have with Jack Ruby's family, friends and business associates? 6 Mr. MCWILLIE. I didn't even know his family or friends, I didn't know his family. He told me that he had a brother who was sick and his sister was ill, someway. He didn't elaborate. Mr. PURDY. Did you have any mutual friends? Mr. MCWILLIE. Sir? Mr. PURDY. Did you have any mutual friends? Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, we had friends, a friend named Meyer Panitz, and Jake Rifkin, they were good friends of his. Mr. PURDY. They were also good friends of yours? Mr. McWILLIE. Oh, yes, they were friends of mine in Memphis. Mr. PURDY. Is there anyone else you can think of that was a friend of both you and Jack Ruby? Mr. MCWILLIE. No, I don't. He probably knew everybody in town on account of this night club he had. Mr. PURDY. Did you know a lot of people in Dallas also? Mr. McWILLIE. Quite a few, yes. Mr. PURDY. Other than what you have mentioned, did you do anything else with Jack Ruby, such as travel with him? Mr. McWILLIE. No, no, never traveled with Jack Ruby. Mr. PURDY. What knowledge do you have of Jack Ruby's possible involvement in any criminal activities? Mr. McWILLIE. None whatever, sir. Mr. PURDY. What is your opinion of Jack Ruby's personality? What kind of a man was he? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, Jack was a man that, he wanted to be a big man in the entertainment field, I would say, the biggest, and he was kind of an egotist, I guess, and I don't know. Mr. PURDY. Was he a thoughtful man, was he a gentle man? Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, he was, he was as far as I know. Mr. PURDY. Was he ever a violent man? Mr. McWILLIE. Not around me, no sir. Mr. PURDY. Mr. McWillie, did you give a deposition to staff members of this committee on April 4, 1978? Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes sir. Mr. PURDY. Mr. Chairman, I ask at this time that that deposition be entered into the record as JFK exhibit No. F-572. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, it will be admitted into the record at this point. Mr. PURDY. Mr. Chairman, I also ask at this time that two FBI interviews of Mr. McWillie be entered into the record as JFK exhibits F-573 and F-574. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, they will be admitted into the record at this point. [The above referred to JFK exhibits F-572, F-573, and F-574 follow:] 7 Stenographic Transcript of Hearings Title Page 8 JFK EXHIBIT F-572 To: G. Robert Blakey From: Howard Shapiro Re: Summary of Deposition of Lewis McWillie Taken by Jim Wolf and Andy Purdy 4/4/78 011171 A. McWillie biographical data McWillie was born May 4, 1903 in Kansas City, Missouri (p. 4). His current address is 3627 Eastern Avenue, Las Vegas, Nevada (p. 3). He is currently employed as a floorman at the Holiday Inn casino in Las Vegas (p. 4) and has worked at various casions for many years. McWillie worked at the Blue Bonnet Hotel in Dallas in 1941 and 1942 (p. 8). and then worked at the Top of the Hill Terrace in Arlington, Texas for eight or nine years (p. 7). Then he ran a gambling house in Fort Worth for several years called the Four Duces (p. 6). Following this he worked at the Tropicana and Capri Hotel in Cuba (p. 6), and spent some time working in Aruba and Curacao (p. 5). In 1961 he began working in Nevada, at the Cal-Neva Lodge (p. 5). and then at the Riverside Hotel. Thunderbird Club, Carousel Club (Las Vegas), Horseshoe Club, arts finally the Holiday Inn casino (pp. 4-5). B. Relationship with Jack Ruby McWillie met Ruby in 1951. He would see Ruby occasionally in a late-night restaurant and was told that Ruby ran the Vegas Club. "Finally, one night we got up to go out into the lobby of the hotel and he walked up to me and said, 'Is your name McWillie?' I said, 'Yes.' And he explained who he was and that he was Jewish and that he was having a problem with his night club" (p. 9). Ruby's problem apparently concerned a curfew and possible discriminatory enforcement by somebody (p. 11). McWillie advised Ruby to 9 speak to an individual named Schepps (p- 9)- Between 1951 and 1958 McWillie could not get rid of Ruby and they became pretty good friends (pp. 9, 23). The last time McWillie saw Ruby was in 1961 when McWillie was driving from Miami to Las Vegas and he stayed overnight in Dallas (p. 80). While in Las Vegas McWillie received several letters from Ruby which concerned Ruby's Carousel club in Dallas and how nice it was and items of this nature (p. 79). Early in 1963 McWillie called Ruby and wanted Ruby to go to a gun dealer in Dallas (Ray Brantley) and purchase a handgun and send it to Las Vegas, as McWillie stated that he didn't know where to go in Las Vegas to get a gun (pp. 19-20). McWillie did not recall asking Ruby to send him four guns (to Cuba) in 1959 (pp. 21, 69). In 1963 Ruby called McWillie to see if he could help out with Ruby's labor and union (AGVA) problems- McWillie suggested contacting William Miller, who was in the entertainment field. Ruby did this and later called McWillie a number of times to express his thanks for McWillie's aid (pp. 17, 71). McWillie had no familiarity with AGVA's operations in Dallas (p. 71). McWillie several times denied making statements to the FBI in 1963 and 1964 (p. 113) concerning Ruby. C. McWillie in Cuba McWillie was in Cuba from the middle of 1958 until January 1, 1961. Johnny Williams contacted McWillie about a possible job at the Tropicana in Cuba (p. 82), so McWillie went to Cuba and met with the Tropicana's owners, Martinez and Pedro Fox (p. 83). He got the job and 10 was later promised a percentage of the club's profits if it was a success but this did not turn out to be the case (p. 85) When the govern- ment closed the clubs the Foxes went to Miami (p. 86). In Cuba McWillie knew Santos Trafficante and Norman Rothman but Just in the sense of casually seeing them (p. 91). He saw Trafficante in prison once but did not talk to him (p. 92). He did see Dino Cellini in prison, as Cellini was at one time manager at the Tropicana (p. 94) McWillie's reason for visiting the prison at all was to see a younger individual who had been a dealer at the club (p. 95). McWillie also met Jake Lansky in Cuba (p. 96). and he made a num- ber of trips to Miami to deposit money in banks for the Foxes (p. 99) McWillie stated that the Cuban government never bothered him(p. 93). After leaving Cuba he had strong anti-Castro feelings. D. Ruby in Cuba McWillie convinced the Foxes that one way to get more business for the Tropicana would be to have Tony Zoppi, a Dallas entertainment columnist, come to Cuba and then give the club a write-up- To do this Mc- Willie invited Zoppi and Ruby (they were also friendly) to Cuba and he called Ruby in the spring of 1959 to inform him of this plan (p. 12). Ruby said that he would get Zoppi to go along with the plan (p. 106), and McWillie eventually sent two airplane tickets to Dallas (pp. 13, 108). Zoppi couldn't make the trip so Ruby came by himself, in August, 1959, which foiled the publicity angle (p. 13). McWillie did not know why Zoppi did not come (p. 111). 11 McWillie displayed part of a letter written by Zoppi to Hatty Brescia Enterprises in which Zoppi states that any theories concerning the assassination and Ruby and Cuban links are not true (pp. 14-15). Ruby stayed in Cuba for about six days and McWillie believes that he then went back to Dallas (p. 17). McWillie can't remember what he did in Cuba besides annoy him (p. 103). McWillie did introduce Ruby to the Foxes (p. 86), and says that he is not sure if Ruby accompanied him on any prison visits (p. 133). McWillie doesn't recall a one-day Ruby visit to Cuba and says that if this occurred in 1959 then he would know about it. (p. 133). E. McWillie associates McWillie says that he knows R.D. Matthews, a Dallas gambler (p. 40). He knew Joseph Civello in Dallas (p. 59), and he knew Jack Todd and saw Todd once or twice in Cuba, but Ruby wasn't in Cuba at those times (p. 61). He knew Sam Yaras, brother of organized crime figure Dave Yaras (pp. 64-65). McWillie knew George Butler of the Dallas police (p. 74). He knew Meyer Panitz well (p. 100). He knew Mike McLaney and worked for him at one time, in 1975. He also knew Mike's brother Bill McLaney (p. 123). F. Ruby information McWillie says that Ruby always had a gun, in order to protect the receipts from his club, and he remembers the sack wherein Ruby kept the gun and money (pp. 20, 70). There was no gambling activity at the Vegas Club and this club was full of customers all the time (pp. 23, 26). McWillie was never in 12 Ruby's Carousel club. Ruby himself would never gamble on anything and was not involved with gambling in any way (pp. 33, 36, 54). Ruby did not know any of the prominent Dallas gambling figures (pp. 45-46). Ruby was a frugal individual (p. 36). He was always courteous to Dallas policemen and gave them whiskey as Christmas presents (p. 72). McWillie believes that Ruby had wanted to be a big man around Dallas and that he shot Oswald in order to become a martyr of some sorts (pp. 30, 129-130). C. Ruby associates McWillie says that two of Ruby's closest friends were Jake Rifkin, a gambler, and Mark Panitz, although this may be Meyer Panitz (pp. 27-28), whom McWillie later describes as one of Ruby's closest-: friends (p. 101). Panitz is described as a bookmaker. Ruby knew W.C. Kirkwood, but not his son Pat Kirkwood (p. 33). Ruby knew the Campisi brothers in Dallas and thinks that Ruby knew Jack Todd (pp. 59, 62). Ruby knew Gordon McLendon very well (p. 73) About four months ago Earl Ruby introduced himself to McWillie in Las Vegas and said he was in town working on a documentary about Jack Ruby. McWillie told Earl Ruby that he wasn't interested in talking to him and that his relationship with Jack Ruby had already caused him enough problems (pp. 38-39). 13 Index of Names for McWillie Deposition Dick Anconi 58 Johnny Avon 43, 46 Barney Baker 64 Babe Baron 88 Dominic Bartone 118 Sam Benton 118 Benny Bickers 44, 46 Benny Binion 42, 43, 45, 46, 49.51, 61 Willie Bischorf (aka Lefty Clark) 87, 88 Johnny Blaine 134 Ray Brantley 20 James Breen 67 Bunny Breen 67 Edward Browder 118 Fred Browning 7, 44, 45, 46 Angelo Bruno 87 George Butler 74 Billy Byers 57-58 Joe Campisi 59-60 Sam Campisi 59-60 FNU Carraway 56 Dino Cellini 94-95, 134 Berle Cheek 43-44, 46 Oscar Cheninder 86, 132 Joe Civello 59 Jim Clunen 17 Raymond Cortez 131 Earl Dalton 7-8, 42, 51-52, 75 Richard Danner 126 James Henry Dolan 71 Paul Dorfman 65 David Elatkin 132 Marty Field 58-59 William E. Fletcher 131 Martinez, Pedro Fox 83, 85-86, 90, 93, 99, 105, 116-117 Sidney Fruhman 31 Sam Giancana 97, 125 Eva Grant 38 Lois Green 61 Johnny Grizzaffi 60 Dewey Groom 58 Pete Guarisco 40 Steve Guthrie 48 Harry Hall 57 J. Patrick Hemming 122 John Wilson Hudson 93 E. Howard Hunt 127 H. L. Hunt 57, 74 Paul R. Jones 67 Fay Kirkwood 32, 35 Pat Kirkwood 32-34 W.C. Kirkwood 32-35, 44 14 Jay Kosloff 5 Jake Lansky 95, 134 Meyer Lansky 95 Robert Larkin 132 Vincent Lee 71 Mike McLaney 122-123, 125 William McLaney 123-125 Robert McKeown 68, 118 Gordon McLendon 72-73 Carlos, Vincent Marcello 39 John Thomas Masen 68 Elizabeth Ann Matthews 40 Russell D. Matthews 40-41 Joseph Merola 68 Lawrence Meyers 65 Ivy Miller 7-8, 42-43, 45, 51-52, 75 Izzy Miller 62 Misty Lane Miller 102 William Miller 18, 135 Juan Orta 131 Mark, Meyer Panitz 28, 100-102, 135 Tony Pappa 72 Lenny Patrick 64 Sid Richardson 56, 58 T.W. Richardson 83-84 Jake Rifkin 27-29, 135 Helen Alfonse Roan 67 John Roselli 96-97, 125 Norman Rothman 91, 94 Earl Ruby 38 Sam Ruby 39 Henry Savadra 131 Red Scarborough 7, 42-43, 46, 51-52, 75 Julius Schepps 9-11, 22, 75 Mike Shore 72 Sidney Siedband 61 John Eli Stone 63 Frank Sturgis 126 Sack Todd 61 Santos Trafficante 91-94, 134 Harry Urban 51 FNU Ventura 90 Abe Weinstein 132 Ben Whittaker 45-46 Johnny Williams 82-83 Will Wilson 48 Dave Yaras 64 Sam Yaras 64-65 Jess Zilliack 49 Tony Zoppi 12-14, 16, 24, 81, 100, 106-112, 114-115, 119-120 15 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS DEPOSITION OF LEWIS J. MC WILLIE, a witness produced, sworn, and examined on Tuesday, the 4th day of April, in the year of our Lord 1978, between the hours of 8 o'clock in the forenoon and 6 o'clock in the afternoon of that day, in Room 4-003, Federal Courthouse, 210 Las Vegas Boulevard, before the Select Committee on Assassinations, House of Representatives of the United States of America. APPEARANCES: For the Committee: JAMES WOLF, Deputy Chief Counsel, Select Committee on Assassinations, U.S. House of Representatives, Washington, D.C. DONALD A. PURDY, Staff Counsel, Select Committee on Assassinations, U.S. House of Representatives, Washington, D.C. 16 LEWIS J. MC WILLIE of lawful age, being produced, sworn, and examined on the part of the Committee, deposeth and saith: MR. WOLF: The record should note that the witness has been sworn by Magistrate Ward. My name is Janes Wolf. My co-counsel today is Donald Purdy and we both have been, pursuant to House Resolution 222 and Committee Rule 4, designated counsel empowered to take statements under oath. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WOLF: Q Will the witness please state his name for the record? A. Sir? Q. Will the witness please state his name for the record? A. Lewis J. McWillie. Q. And, Mr. McWillie, you have been subpoenaed by the House Committee but instead of an appearance in Washington, you requested that this deposition take place in-- A. (Interrupting) Yes, I just had an operation on my eye. Q. Excuse me, sir. A. I just had an operation on my eyes. I had a de- 17 tached retina in my left eye, right eye, too. Q. And this deposition is taking place at your re- quest, then, to avoid an appearance in Washington, is that correct? A. I wanted to be close to my doctors, yes. Q. Mr. McWillie, you are aware that under our Committee's rules, you have the right to have counsel with you at this deposition. A. I don't need any counsel. I don't think. Q. And, Mr. McWillie, you have been given a copy of our Committee Rules and House Resolutions 222. 433 and 760, is that correct? A. To tell you the truth, I didn't read it. I just knew it was a subpoena. Q. Well, are you aware of Committee Rule 4. which is about the designated counsel taking your statements under oath? You have been given a copy of the Committee Rules. is that correct? A. Yes. BY MR. PURDY: Q. Mr. McWillie, could you please state your present address? A. 3627 Eastern Avenue. Q. In Las Vegas? A. Las Vegas, yes. 18 Q. What is your date and place of birth? A. Kansas City, Missouri, 1908. What was the month and day? A. May 4th. Q. What is your present occupation? A. I'm a floorman in a casino. Q. What casino is that? A. Holiday Inn. Q. How long have you worked there? A. I 've worked there a little over a year, about 14 months. Q. Where did you work before that? A. I worked before that at the Horseshoe Club. Q. How long did you work there? A. I worked there on and off many years, since 67, I believe - Q. Do you recall where you worked prior to that? A. I worked at the Carousel Club. Q. How long did you work there? A. Let me see, about three years, I guess. Q. That would be 1964 to 19677 A. I would say so. I'm not sure but I would say that's about the date. Q. What city was that? A. Here in Las Vegas. 19 Q. Where did you work prior to 1964? A. 1964 I worked at the Riverside Hotel in Reno. Q. How long did you work there? A. I worked there the latter part of '61 through '62. Q. What was your job prior to that? A. What was my job, where did I work prior to that? Q. Yes. A. I worked at the Thunderbird Hotel. I left there and went to the Thunderbird Hotel. Q. How long did you work there? A. I worked there about a year. Q. Where did you work prior to that? A. I went to an island named Arruba, the Netherland Antilles. I stayed there maybe a month and then was transferred to Curacao. I stayed there about nine months. Q. Who transferred you to Curacao? A. Jay Kosloff. K-o-s-l-o-f-f. Q. Prior to working in Arruba, where did you work? A. I went from Arruba to Curacao, last place I worked. Q. No, I mean prior to Arruba, where did you work? A. Prior to Arruba I worked at the--wait a minute now. Wait just a minute. I skipped one place I didn't tell you. Before I went to the Riverside, I worked at the Cal Neva Lodge. In '61 I was at the Cal-Neva Lodge. 20 6 Q. So you worked-- A. (Interrupting) Then I went to the other places. Q. Then you went on to Arruba and Curacao? A. Yes. Q. Prior to working at the Cal-Neva Lodge, where did you work? A. Prior to that I worked in Cuba. Q. Did you work in Havanna at that time? A. Yes. sir. Q. Did you work at the Tropicana then? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you work at any other-- A. (Interrupting) I worked in the Capri Hotel, I don't know how long, it wasn't very long, though. Q. Where did you work prior to working at the Tropicana and the Capri Hotels? A. In Dallas. Q. Where did you work in Dallas? A. Well, I had a little gambling house, let me see, in Fort Worth. Q. How long did you run that gambling house? A. We had it a couple or three years, I guess. I don't exactly remember how long. Q. What was the name of that gambling house? A. The Four Duces we called it. Prior to that I 21 worked at the Top of the Hill Terrace in Arlington, Texas. How long did you work there? A. Oh, I'd say eight years, nine years. Q. Who did you work for there? A. Who did I work for? I worked for a man named Fred Browning and I worked for Earl Dalton, Ivy Miller and a fellow named Scarborough- Q. What kind of work did you do at that club? A. I was a manager. Q. You managed the gambling activities? A. The gambling. yes. Q. When did you begin the gambling operation at the Four Duces? A. Doggone if I know. I think it was '51, I'm not sure, not positive. Q. What kind of gambling went on there? A. Dice games and 21 game. Q. Just dice and card games? A. Yes. Q. Was there any numbers operation working out of there? A. No, no, it was a little place. Q. Where did you work prior to the Four Duces? A. I told you that, at the Top of the Hill Terrace. Q. Where did you work prior to that? 22 A. Let me see. I worked in Dallas at a place called the Blue Bonnet Hotel, I believe it was. Q. Was there a gambling operation there? A. Yes. Q. What kind of gambling was there? A. Dice game. Q. Who did you work for there? A. I worked for Miller. Q. Ivy Miller? A. Ivy Miller and Earl Dalton, the only two I know I was working for. Q. When did you begin your work at the Blue Bonnet? A. Let me see. It was so long ago. I'd say '41 or '42, I 'm not sure. Q. So you worked at the Blue Bonnet from 1941 to '42 until you worked at the Four Duces? A. I don't think I worked for the Blue Bonnet but about a year. Then I went out to the Top of the Hill. Q. So you worked in Dallas at the Blue Bonnet, then the Top of the Hill, then the Four Duces? A. That's right. Q. So the first club that you owned, what was the first club that you owned? Was that the Four Duces? A. That was the Four Duces, yes. Q. So the other places you worked for other people, 23 23 is that right? A. Other people, yes. Q. Mr. McWillie, when did you meet Jack Ruby? A. Jack Ruby, I 've tried to think what year it was. Do you want me to tell you the whole story about Jack Ruby from the beginning to the end? Q. I think that would be a good idea, yes, sir. A. I believe it was when I was at the Four Duces and a couple of dealers and myself would stop in an all-night restaurant and get a bite to eat when we come in, maybe 2 o'clock, 1 o'clock, 3 o'clock. I noticed a fellow at the counter with a hat on, which was very unusual to see a fellow with a hat on around Dallas. I asked one of the fellows, I said, "Who is that fellow?" He kept looking at us. He said, "That's a fellow named Jack Ruby that runs a club named the Vegas Club out on Oak Lawn", I believe it was. About three or four nights he was there. Finally, one night we got up to go out into the lobby of the hotel and he walked up to me and said, "Is your name McWillie?" I said, "Yes." And he explained who he was and that he was Jewish and that he was having a problem to with his night club. He talked like a real nice fellow. I said, "Why don't you go see Mr. Schepps, a man named Julius Schepps." He owned a big liquor distributing place there and he used to play with us at the Top of the Hill, a 24 10 real nice man. MR. WOLF: Could you spell the name Schepps? WITNESS: I'd have to say it was S-c-h-e- p-p-s. BY MR. PURDY: Q. Do you remember his first name? A. Julius. BY MR. WOLF: Q. Also for the record, what year was this that you first met Jack Ruby? A. I don't know. I think it was around '51, I be- lieve. I would have to say it was around '51, I don't know exactly. I tried to think what year it was. BY MR. PURDY: Q. What was the name of the restaurant you say you saw him? A. It was a place called Webb 's Coffee Shop in the Southland Hotel. MR. WOLFE: Continue. A. And then I suggested that he go see him. He was a big Jewish leader in the city. And he did. From then on I cold never get rid of Jack Ruby. Jack Ruby was at my apartment. He was around me all the time. He just appreciated, I guess, what I had done for him. So, finally, I went to Cuba, I think, in '58, I 25 11 believe. BY MR. PURDY: Q. Could we back up just a little bit before we move on to '58. What was the nature of the problem that Jack Ruby was having with his club? A. They were making him close early or something. Q. Was this a curfew? A. They enforced a curfew on him. so he said, I don't know. Q. Was it your impression that they were enforcing a rule against him that they were not enforcing against other clubs? A. That 's what he said. Q. Why did you refer him to Mr. Schepps? A. He said he was Jewish, therefore, Mr. Schepps was a big leader in the Jewish community, and I didn't know if he could do him any good or not, to tell you the truth. But he evidently did him good. He didn't have no more trouble after that. Q. Did Mr. Schepps have good connections with the authorities in Dallas that could help Jack Ruby? A. He was a well-known man and a well-liked man. He was just a fine man, Mr. Schepps was. Q. What was his occupation? 26 12 A. He had a liquor distributing, I think it's Sea- grams. Q. Do you want to proceed with your story about Jack Ruby? A. If you want me to. Q. Please, sure. A. So when I go to Cuba in, I believe it was the middle of '58, I'm not positive of what date it was, and I get this job at the Tropicana Hotel, managing the Tropicana Hotel with a promise of a percentage of the place when it got to doing good, which it never did much good on account of the revolution coming up and all that. I stayed there until, I don't know how long I stayed there. I stayed there after Castro got there anyway, '59, maybe in the latter part of '59 or '60. And then I went up--they didn't close it, the government took it. And from there I went up to the Capri and stayed there a very short while. I don't know how long, before the government took it. And from then on I wasn't doing anything until I went to Miami. Q. Could you continue on your contact with Jack Ruby over those years? A. When I was in the Tropicana, they were hunting for business, trying to get business, and I suggested that I call Jack Ruby and have him get a hold of Tony Zoppi. Tony Zoppi is a well known columnist like Bishop, Earl Wilson, 27 13 people like that. That's the kind of a man he was in Dallas and all society people read his column. He wrote me back that they 'd come over on a certain date. So I sent him two tickets, which the place paid for. Then I explained to him we would pay for their room. We figured we would get a lot of publicity from it and people from Dallas would come to Cuba. Later on, if I remember right. Jack came and said that, what's his name, Tony couldn't make it. That's the cause of all my problems. Here's a letter. Would you care to see this? It's from my brother to me. A fellow had written my brother a letter and put a piece in there where Zoppi had--my brother's letter is kind of a personal letter. BY MR. WOLF: Q. Is this the letter you would like us to read? A. That's from my brother. It explains that he's sending me this piece. It's just a personal letter but in it he states where he 's sending me a--would you like me to come over there? Q. Yes, if you would, to explain these. A. This is part of the letter and this is the man that sent my brother the letter. This is really what I wanted you to see (indicating). Q. This is a copy of a portion of a letter that 28 14 Tony Zoppi sent to-- A. (Interrupting) That 's the original letter. Q. This is the original letter? A. That's the original part. The other part of the letter didn't mean a darn thing to me. Q. Tony Zoppi sent this to whom? A. To the man's name you've got there in your right hand. Q. To Matty Brescia Enterprises? A. Yes. Q. Mr. McWillie, could we retain these for the record? A. Could you make a copy of it and give me back that part? MR. WOLF: For the record, Mr. McWillie has given us part of a letter allegedly sent by Tony Zoppi to a Matty Brescia, B-r-e-s-c-i-a, Enterprises at 4990 Popular, Suite 331, Memphis, Tennessee 38117, and I will read that portion of the letter which Mr. McWillie has given us. It states. "Give my regard to Mcwillie next time you are in touch. Jack Ruby and I were supposed to visit him in Havana but I got side tracked. Jack went on ahead and it has caused Mac a lot of trouble over the years. The quick buck artists are saying Jack went down there to 29 15 plan the assassination. He couldn't have planned a gas station holdup in those days. All of a sudden, he's a CIA agent, a Mafiadon, et cetera, et cetera, sickening. Keep in touch and God bless. Keep up the good work and I will say another prayer for Buddy." THE WITNESS: That's his kid that got killed MR. WOLF: "Sincerely, Tony." Buddy is Tony's son who got killed. THE WITNESS: They're good friends, both in the same kind of work. This fellow writes for a variety magazine. MR. WOLF: you're speaking of Marry Brescia? THE WITNESS: Tony is a published, man at the Riveria Hotel. BY MR. PURDY: Q. Who is Buddy? A. Read it over about Buddy. MR. WOLF: "Keep up the good work and I will say another prayer for Buddy." A. Buddy was his son. young son. He was sitting in a window and he fell out of the window and it killed him. BY MR. WOLF: Q. Is that Mat Brescia's son? A. Matty Brescia's son. You can keep that if you want to if you give me a 30 16 copy of it. MR. WOLF: Surely, thank you. BY MR. WOLF: Q. You've not given us the top of the letter. Do you know approximately what date this was written? A. It's on the envelope with the date I received the letter from my brother. Q. It's stamped Memphis, Tennessee, 18 August 1976. A. It must have been right around that time. I guess. Q. To the best of your knowledge, your brother for- warded this to you as soon as your brother had received it? A. I 'm sure he did, yes. Q. And how did your brother get the letter from Mr. Brescia? A. Brescia gave it to him. Q. And your brother's located in Memphis, Tennessee? A. Isn't there a yellow piece of paper in there from Brescia, a white piece maybe? I think there's a letter in there from Brescia. Q. Yes, there's a portion of a letter that says, "Hi, Jim." Is that your brother's name, Jim? A. Jim, yes. Q. It says, "Thought you'd want see this letter from Louie's and my friend, Tony Zoppi, former columnist in Dallas, now big executive at the Riveria in Vegas. Show 31 17 this Louie when you see him. He would like it. Pray for our dear son and us. It was a tragic loss. Jim, Monsignor Clunen, C-l-u-n-e-n, delivered the mass and eulogy. God bless you always. Your friend and Louie's and your family, Matty Brescia." Thank you, Mr. McWillie, we'll make copies and return them back to you. BY MR. WOLF: Q. If you could continue, you were talking about inviting Jack and Tony down to visit you at the Tropicana. A. Tony didn't come and he came. I think he stayed around there about six days. I was at the Tropicana at the time. He was there every night that he was in Havana and after that he went back to Dallas. That's the last time I've seen him in Havana. He never came back to Havana. Q. And if you would continue your relationship to Jack after you came back. A. He'd write me letters. Oh. I'll tell you another thing about him. In, I believe it was the early part of 1963, he called me up and he was having some trouble with the AGVA. That's the American Guild of Variety Artists. He said, "Mac, do you know anybody that knows the president of the company?" I explained all of this to the FBI. You can check with them. I don't think I told them about Zoppi. I forgot about it. I didn't tell them. 32 18 He said, "If you can find somebody that knows the president, I'm having a lot of trouble with my competition." I understand he'd had another place. At that time he had a place up town right next to this other place. I said, "Well, I know a man that might know him", a man named Bill Miller who was an entertainment director at the Hilton Hotels. I called Bill and I said, "Bill. there's a friend of mine that's having trouble with the AGVA." I knew he knew the president because I had heard him speak of it. I ran the place in Reno for him. I said. "Is there anything you could do for him?" I gave him Jack's number. I said, "Call him and see what you can do for him." So another day or two went by and Jack called me. If he called me once, he called me five times thanking me, thanking me, thanking me, like to ran me crazy. Then I got letters from him. Prior to that he got into some of razor blade deal, some kind of razor blade that came out in England, what do they call it, but it was supposed to be terrific razor blade. So he sent me three or four packages in an envelope, just stuff like that. Jack was a kind of a, he wanted to be a big man, do you know what I mean. He was kind of an egotist. That was about it with Jack. He just wanted to be around me for some reason. I don't know why. He just did. Q. What were the nature of your contacts with Jack 33 19 Ruby after he left Havana other than that one phone call where he called you for help with the union ? A. I called him one time, I was working the grave- yard. they call it the graveyard, at the Thunderbird at the time. That's from 2 to 12 in the daytime, I think it was 2 to 12. And there were a bunch of people holding people up around there. If they didn't have any money on them, enough for them. they would beat them up. So I called Ruby and asked Ruby to send me a gun. At that time the kids were just little kids, six and five, seven or six. I never did take the gun out. I just let it go back. My wife was scared the kids would get a hold of it some way and maybe get hurt. BY MR. PURDY: Q. When was that that you asked him to send you a gun? A. Let me see, the gun came, you can check the gun, check the place where he got it from. It must have been around August, I would say. I wouldn't know for sure. though. Q. August of what year? A. Let me see, I think I was here, the first time I was here was in '60. I would say the early part of '63 is when he sent it. Q. Why did you ask Jack Ruby to send you a gun? A. I didn't know where to buy one here. I didn't even know you could buy a gun in a store. I hadn't been 34 20 here long enough to know that. Q. You had been here about two years before you asked him to send you a gun? A. I had been here a very short time, '63. I think I came here in '63. I think when I went to work at the Thunderbird. I came down from Reno. I think it was the first part of '63. I think, February of '63. This might have happened in March, I believe, I don't know. You can check that out. Q. What made you think that Jack Ruby could get you a gun? A. Because I told him to go to this place because I had always bought shotguns to hunt with and rifles to hunt deer with and everything and I knew the man. Q. Do you know if Jack Ruby had been there before? A. No, I don't. Q. Was it Ray Brantley? A. It was Ray's place. Q. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby had a gun prior to that time? A. Jack always had a gun, he always carried a gun. He didn't carry it. He had it in his car. He would have his receipts every night to go drop it in the bank depository. Q. Did he have more than one gun in his home? A. I don't know how many he had. I wouldn't think he 35 21 had more than one. I never did see more than one. Q. Do you recall telling the FBI the Jack Ruby had a number of guns in his home? A. No. I don't. I don't remember. I don't remember the FBI even asking me if he had any guns in his house. Q. Can you presently recall whether or not Jack Ruby had more than one gun? A. No, sir, I don't. Q. Did you ask Jack Ruby to send you four guns in 1959? A. No. sir. I don't recall anything like that. I've been asked that a lot of times. I don't recall that, no. Q. Did you ever ask Jack Ruby to obtain a gun for you other than the incident you previously testified to today? A. The only gun I ever had him get was the one that I told you about just now. Q. Did you ever ask him to get you other guns? A. No, I don't recall anything like that Q. Did you ever discuss with him how to obtain a gun other than that particular incident? A. I knew how to obtain a gun. At this Ray's place, like I say, I bought a lot of guns, rifles and shotguns. Q. But you never bought pistols there? A. Not that I recall. 36 22 Q. Did you take any of the guns that you'd bought at Ray's place with you to Cuba? A. I left them in Dallas. My wife and I separated and she took the guns and everything. Q. Mr. McWillie, between the time that you asked Julius Schepps to help Jack Ruby or you suggested to Jack Ruby that he go to Mr. Schepps for help-- A. (Interrupting) I suggested that he go and talk to Mr. Schepps. Q. (Continuing) --what was the nature of your re- lationship to Jack Ruby after that prior to the Cuba incident? What kind of a relationship did you have? A. I never could get rid of him- He was around me all the time. I 'd have to insult him to get rid of him Q. Do you know what I mean? He'd come by the apartment and he'd swim and eat dinner at the house a lot of times. I just couldn't get rid of him that's all I can tell you. Not that I wanted to. He was a nice fellow. Whoever thought he would do anything like this, I didn't. Q. Did you get to be pretty good friends with him? A. Yes. Q. What kinds of things did you do together? A. Went out to dinner. I dropped by his club maybe once or twice when he had it out on Oak Lawn. At that time rock and roll had just started. 37 23 Q. Which club was that? A. The Vegas Club. Q. What kind of operation did he have at the Vegas Club? A. Let me think. He had a band and he was the emcee and he served, I think he served beer. I don't believe he served whiskey, beer. That's about all there was to it. He had this other club after I left Dallas. I never did even see that place. That was the one up town. Q. Was that the carousel Club? A. Yes, I never saw that. Q. You're never been in the Carousel Club? A. No, never in my life. Q. Did any gambling go on at the Vegas Club, to your knowledge? A. No. Q. What can you tell us about Jack Ruby's political views? Did you ever discuss politics with him? A. No, I never did. When I was around Jack Ruby, I think Eisenhower was president, I believe he was. Q. That would be the 1950's? A. When was Truman president, do you remember? Q. Prior to 1952. A. Truman was president. And I met Jack right around the first part of the '50's, I'd say the first part of the 38 24 '50's and Truman was president and Eisenhower was president. Q. How did he feel about Truman and Eisenhower? A. I never discussed politics with him. Q. Do you know how he voted? A. He wouldn't bet anything. I don't think he ever bet a nickel on anything. Q. I was asking who he voted for. Do you know who he voted for? A. I don't know. There would be no way I'd know. Q. Did you discuss with Jack Ruby any major events in the country that went on in the 50's? Did you discuss the Korean War, for example? A. Nothing. We never discussed politics. Q. Did you ever discuss Cuban-American relations? A. No, I did not. Q. Did you ever discuss Castro or Batista with Jack Ruby? A. No, I never discussed any kind of politics with Jack Ruby at all. Q. Do you ever recall Jack Ruby talking about the Kennedys, how he felt about the Kennedys? A. Just what I read, I think it was in Tony Zoppi's office right after it happened and he was crying and carrying on, what I read in the paper and you did, too, I'm sure. But I never recall him saying one word about the Kennedys. 39 25 You don't recall him expressing a great love for the Kennedys? A. No. I don't, because Kennedy wasn't president. Eisenhower was president, I'm sure. Q. What kind of man was Jack Ruby toward people? A. Like I said, Jack Ruby wanted to be a bigman. He wanted to be the biggest night club operator in Dallas. That is my assumption. Like I said before, he was kind of an egotist and wore a hat all the time, which was very unusual I thought at the time. Nobody else ever wore a hat around Dallas. Q. Did you find him to be a violent man? A. No, sir, he sure wasn't. Now, in his club if someone got out of line, that means fighting or something, he would just take them and put them out. I never saw him hurt anybody Q. You never saw him even strike anyone? A. No, I never did. Q. Did you ever know of him beating up anyone? A. I don't recall ever hearing him beat up anyone. Q. Did Jack Ruby ever get in any arguments with you or anyone else over any subject? A. He never got in an argument with me for sure. I can't recall him ever having an argument. He had a lot of friends around Dallas, different people. 40 26 Q. Do you remember him getting in any arguments about his union troubles? A. No. Q. Do you remember him getting in any arguments about paying his employees? A. No. Q. Do you remember him getting in any arguments about the strip-tease shows? A. Like I said, when I was there, he didn't have a strip-tease joint. I don't think it was strip tease. I don 't think he ever had strip tease out at the place. Q. Please continue- A. I think all he had was a stage in the middle of the place, a room a little bigger than this one. He had a stage up against one wall and he would come out and do the emcee and everybody would laugh because he didn't know how to talk, you know. Q. That was the Vegas Club? A. Yes: he had a band and as far as I can recall, I don't believe he had any strip tease. I'm almost positive he didn't. Q. How successful was the Vegas Club? A. He said it was doing all right. I wouldn't have any way of knowing. It was full all the time. Q. Did he ever ask you for money? 41 27 A. No. Q. Do you remember if he ever got money from any other individuals? A. No. Q. Do you remember that he had any business partners? A. No, I don't think he did, to tell you the truth. No I'm sure he didn't Q. Do you remember if he ever got in any financial trouble? A. What, sir? Q. In financial trouble. A. No, sir, I don't think he ever did as long as I knew him, he didn't. At least he never said anything about it. Q. Did Jack Ruby have problems with his incom taxes? A. Not that I know of. I didn't know him that well to know all his business, you know, his personal business. He could have had anything and I wouldn't know it. Q. Did he ever propose any business deals with you? A. Never, never Q. Do you know any people who were particularly good friends with Jack Ruby? A. Well, I know two real good friends of his. One fellow named Jake Rifkin, he's dead. He died a year or so ago. And another one named Mark Panitz, P-a-n-i-t-z. They 42 28 were two of his close friends. Q. What did Jake Rifkin do for a living? A. He was a gambler. Q. Where did he gamble? A. Around Memphis, around. let's see if he ever dealt any gambling houses. yes, he has dealt in gambling houses, I don't recall which one, around Memphis years and years ago. many years ago. Q. How did Jack Ruby get to know him? A. Through me. They were friends of mine. Q. Did Jake Rifkin gamble in Dallas? A. I think he worked around Dallas, I believe dealing around there some. Q. Do you know who he worked for? A. He might have come out and worked for me a couple of times up at the Top of the Hill, a few times. Q. During what period of time did he get to be good friends with Jack Ruby? A. Did he get to be? I'd say about the same time I did. They were both my good friends. Q. So that would have been late '40's or early '50's? A. I'd have to say the early '50's. I'm pretty sure it was early. it could have been the late '40's. but I think it was early '50's. Q. For how long a period of time was Jake Rifkin and 43 29 Jack Ruby good friends? A. Let me see. I'd say six or seven years, eight years maybe. Q. Why did they stop being good friends? A. I don't really know. They were still good friends as far as I know. I don't know. Jake left there. Let me see, I think he went to Hot Springs. He used to go to Hot Springs every year. Q. Do you know-- A. (Interrupting) And he could have worked over there, too, I don't know. Q. Who were some of the people Jake Rifkin gambled with in Dallas? A. I really wouldn't know. I wouldn't know, different gamblers. I wouldn't know. Q. What type of gambling would he have been involved in ? A. Oh, hell. he'd do anything, shoot dice, bet on horses, baseball games, football games. Herd bet on any- thing. Q. Did Jack Ruby have any other friends who were involved in gambling? A. I can't think of any, no. But these two fellows, they were friends of his. Q. How did you know they were good friends of his? 44 30 A. They would be at my apartment and we would swim and they would be there all the time. Q. I believe you stated that Jack Ruby thought very highly of you? A. He did. On account of me doing him so many favors I guess. Like I told you about the union, straightened that out, Bill Miller. And he called me later and said, what kind of people are you having me call, calling me. Well, what the hell, pardon me, I didn't know that Jack Ruby was going to do what he did. There wasn't any way in the world I would know that. I thought he was harmless. And I still think that he did it. I thought he thought it would make him a big man, that's all I can say. And I 've told everybody that. And that's exactly the reason I think he did it. He thought it would make him a martyr or something. Q. Was Jack Ruby very interested in money for what it could buy for him? A. I didn't get that, sir. Q. Was Jack Ruby very interested in money for what it could buy for him? A. He didn't seem to be, no, he really didn't. When I was around him, he seemed to be perfectly happy with his place. Q. You're saying he was much more interested in be- 45 31 coming a big man around town? A. That's what I think, yes. I really think that. in the entertainment field. Q. Did he see you as a big man in Dallas? A. I guess he might have thought that. Q. Why would he have thought that? A. I don't know why he thought that. He evidently did think that the way he hung around. I always conducted myself in the proper manner. Q. Who were some of the influential people in Dallas that you had good connections with? A. That I had good connections with? I didn't have any good connections with any of the big legitimate people. I did know a man named Sidney Fruhman. We used to play gin at his house a lot of Sundays. That was about the extent of my running with the legitimate people, if you know what I mean. Q. Did you say with illegitimate or with legitimate? A. Legitimate, with legitimate people, I mean business people. Q. How do you spell his last name? A. F-r-u-h-m-a-n. He's dead, too. Q. What was his occupation? A. He had a chain of hat stores named Rhelle, Rhelle 46 32 Hat Stores. I don 't know if they're still in operation. I'm sure they are. Q. Did Jack Ruby frequent the Top of the Hill Club? A. No, I think the Top of the Hill Club was closed when I met jack Ruby. I 'm pretty sure, I 'm positive it was, almost positive. Q. Did any gambling go on at the Top of the Hill Club? A. Yes. Q. And that was the dice and the cards that you spoke of before? A. We had a roulette wheel or two and dice games, maybe three, and one twenty-one game. Q. Did jack Ruby frequent the Cellar Club in Fort Worth? A. The Steller Club, I never heard of it. Q. The Cellar Club. A. Costello? Q. Cellar, C-e-l-l-a-r. A. I never heard of it. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Pat or Fay Kirkwood? A. Yes, that's where I was at in Fort Worth. Don't get them mixed up. One of them is the son and one is the old man. The old man that I was with was rained W.C. Kirkwood. Pat is kind of a hippie type young fellow. He was young then. He's not young now. 47 33 Q. Did Jack Ruby know W.C. Kirkwood? A. Just to say hello to him. He may have been out there maybe once or twice. Q. What was the name--was it a club that Mr. Kirkwood ran? A. It was a home. We were sneaking gambling is what we was doing. Q. Over what time period was there gambling in Mr. Kirkwood' s home ? A. I'd have to say, I believe from '51 to '53. I'm not sure. While I was there, he had some gambling there before. But when I was there '51 to '53. I 'm not positive but I think so. Q. And you say you think Jack Ruby may have gone there once or twice? A. That's all. Q. Did Jack Ruby gamble there? A. No, he wouldn't gamble. I told you he wouldn't bet anything, on anything. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Pat Kirkwood? A. No, I 'm sure he didn't. Q. What occupation was Pat Kirkwood in? A. Last I heard of Pat Kirkwood, he had a hippie, we call it a joint, a hippie joint where they lay on the floor on pads. I never was in it but I heard about it. 48 34 He grew a beard and long hair and prior to that he had been a race driver but he opened this place and kind of went, I don't know, it was during that hippie period, wasn't around the '50's. Q. What time period did Pat Kirkwood operate that place? A. Pat Kirkwood, I just don't know. Let me see, I left there in '53. I'd say he must have started around I believe. I 'm not positive, though. I couldn't say for sure. Q. What was the name of Pat Kirkwood's place? A. I don't know. I just heard about it. Q. Where was it located? A. It was in Fort Worth in the city, I think. Q. Now, you said Pat was W. C . Kirkwood's son ? A. His son, that's right. Q. Do you know where he is now? A. I have no idea. Q. When was the last time you had communication with Pat Kirkwood ? A. I haven't had communication with Pat Kirkwood, I haven't heard from Pat Kirkwood in years, even thought about him. I've seen his father. His father's been out here maybe once or twice. He's half blind. Q. Where does W.C. Kirkwood live now? 49 35 A. I'm sure he still lives at the same place. Hers been there many, many years. Q. Where is that? A. 2222 Jacksborough Highway. Q. In what town? A. Fort Worth. Q. You were describing the place that Pat Kirkwood ran as having pads on the floor. A. I just had people telling me about it. I was never in there, don't even knew what street it was on and where it was at. But I heard people laughing about it and talking about it Q. Basically they were talking about the fact that he had sexual activity going on in his place? A. No, they were just talking about what a bunch of crummy looking people patronized it, you know. At that time everybody was growing a beard. It was the start of the hippie period. Q. What were the pads on the floor for? A. I don't know, to sit on, I guess. I mean that's hearsay to me. I haven't been there so I couldn't tell you for sure. But I'm sure that you could find out very easy. Q. Did you know a Fay Kirkwood? A. That was W.C.'s wife, a very nice lady. She had a dancing horse and she'd ride in rodeos every once in a 50 36 while at that time. Q. Did she ever run a club? A. No, she was strictly a rodeo performer. Q. You stated previously that you didn't know any times when Jack Ruby was in particular financial trouble. Were there any times when he was particularly successful financially? A. No, I think he just made a certain amount of money. I have no idea what he made but he couldn't have made too much money. He made a comfortable living. It was nothing to brag about. Q. Would you describe him as a free spender or was he frugal? A. I 'd have to say he was frugal. He wasn't a free spender. Q. Are there any incidents you can describe that demonstrate that he was frugal? A. Like I'd go out to eat with him and he'd never offer to pay a check. That's one way he was frugal. That's the only way I would know he was frugal. I never saw him throwing any money away. Q. Did you and Jack Ruby ever go out for drinks together and he offered to pay? A. No. Q. Did Jack Ruby drink? 51 37 A. I don't Jack Ruby even drank, to tell you the truth. I never did see him take a drink. you ever travel outside of Dallas with Jack Ruby? A. No. not that I know of. Q. Do you know of Jack Ruby traveling outside of Dallas other than the Cuba trip? A. The only trip I know is right there. The FBI asked me if he had been out here. He's never been out here as far as I know. Q. During the time that you knew Jack Ruby, did he ever travel to Chicago? A. I don't recall him ever going to Chicago. I've heard him talk about Chicago. I think he was from Chicago. I'd have to say he was. I don't recall him ever going anywhere. Q. What do you recall Jack Ruby saying about Chicago? A. Nothing. That he came up in a poor neighborhood and how rough it was for him. He had a tough young life. That's about it. Q. Do you recall him talking about his family living in Chicago? A. I think his family lived in Dallas. His sister out there and he always said she was sick or something. He had a brother. I think he had two brothers. One of them. 52 38 was a little, I don't know, he said he was sick. Q. He said who was sick? A. The brother, the brother and sister both he said were a little sick some way. I don't know. Q. Was he talking about them being physically A. He just said they were sick. Q. Did you ever meet any of Jack Ruby's brothers or sisters? A. I want to tell you something that happened here about, it's been about four months ago. I don't think I ever saw any one of his family in Dallas. I might have seen his sister. Q. His sister was Eva Grant. A. Eva Grant, yes, that's the one I'm talking about. I think I saw her in a restaurant one night with him and I didn't even go, I went to the counter to keep from going around them. He's got a brother named Earl Ruby. He was out here about four months ago and he came by to see me. I was working. He came in the pit. We call it the pit, you know. He said, "Mr. McWillie?" I said, "Yes." He said, "I'm Earl Ruby." Well, I like to fell down. I said, "Earl Ruby?" I said, "What do you want, Earl?" Well, "I just want to say hello to you." I've never seen him in my life before. I said, "What are you doing out here?" He said, "We're going to make a docu- 53 39 mentary", NBC or one of the others. I said, "Listen, will you do me a favor? Would you just get on out of here and get away from me. I've got enough problems about your brother already uncalled for." I don't know if he got mad or not but he left. He was there about five minutes. That's the first time I had ever laid eyes on him. Didn't he have two brothers? Q. Yes, he had a brother named Sam. Did you ever meet Sam Ruby? A. No, I didn't meet him. Have you ever seen any of them? It seemed like he had a little bitty skinny brother. What the hell was his name? But I didn't meet him anyway. I've seen him. But this Earl, I had never laid eyes on him. And when he came into the pit and said, "I'm Earl Ruby", well, I like to fell out. I didn't want to see any Rubys any more. Q. Did Jack Ruby ever travel to New Orleans? A. To New Orleans? If he did, he traveled after I left Dallas. I don't ever recall Jack Ruby ever leaving Dallas the whole time I knew him. Q. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby knew Carlos or Vincent Marcello? A. Is that the fellow in New Orleans? I wouldn't think so, no. I wouldn't think he'd know him. 54 40 Q. Did you know Carlos or Vincent Marcello? A. No. sir, I sure don't. Q. Never met them? A. Never met them in my life. Q. Did Jack Ruby know a man named Pete Guarisco? A. Who? Q. Pete Guarisco. A. Not that I know of. Q. Did you know Pete Guarisco? A. No, never heard of him. Q. Did Jack Ruby travel to Shreveport, Louisiana? A. Not that I know of. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Elizabeth Anne Matthews? A. Elizabeth Anne who? Q. Matthews. A. Elizabeth Anne, no. I mean I don't know whether he knew them or not. He could have known all of them, I don't know, but I don't think he did. Q. Do you know R.D. Matthews? A. Oh, yes. Q. Did you know his wife, Mrs. Elizabeth Anne Matthews? A. I met her just I think one time. Q. Do you recall when you met her? A. I met her at the Horseshoe, I think. 55 41 Q. Was she married to R.D. Matthews at the time? A. I really wouldn't know. I'm sure this is the lady he's married to now. I don't know. I didn't know R.D. too well. I mean not intimately, do you know what I mean. He worked there a while. Q. Do you recall when Jack Ruby came from Chicago to Dallas? A. I have no idea. Q. Do you know how long after he came to Dallas you met him? A. No, I don't have any idea. The first time I ever saw him in my life was like I told you sitting there with that hat on, and it just attracted my attention and I kept looking at this fellow. Q. Does it refresh your memory to know that Jack Ruby came to Dallas around 1947? A. No, I wouldn't know when he came there because I didn't know him. hadn't heard of him. Q. What is your best recollection as to when you met Jack Ruby? A. I'd say the first part of the '50's because I think I was in Fort Worth. I either went over there in '51 to '53 or '53 to '56. I don't recall the exact dates. I met him while I was at the Four Duces. Q. Prior to Jack Ruby's arrival in Dallas in 1947, 56 42 what was the status of gambling in the Dallas area? A. I don't understand what you mean, the status. Q. What kinds of gambling was going on in the Dallas area in the time, say, 1945 to 1947? A. Well, there were a few crap games and a few horse books is all I know of. Q. Was there any betting on sporting events? A. Not that I know of. I never bet on them myself. It could have been, I don't know. Q. Who was involved in this gambling that you described in 1945 to 1947? A. In Dallas? Q. In the Dallas area, Dallas-Fort Worth area- A. I don't really know. I knew a fellow named Scarborough, Red Scarborough. and like I said. Miller and Earl Dalton. Q. How much numbers activity was there in Dallas? A. I have no idea about the numbers. At the time I was a dice dealer when I was in Dallas. Q. Did you know of any numbers activity in Dallas? A. No, sir, I wouldn't have any way or knowing that because-- Q. (Interrupting) Were you aware of Benny Binion's numbers operation in Dallas prior to 1947? A. No. 57 43 Q. Did you know Benny Binion at that time? A. Know him to see him. Q. You knew him to see him at that time? A. Just to see him. Q. Did you know that Ivy Miller and Red Scarborough worked for Benny Binion in a numbers operation? A. No. I didn't. Q. What gambling activity did you know that Ivy Miller and Red Scarborough were involved in? A. They were involved in the Southland Hotel and could have been involved in the place where I worked, Blue Bonnet, and they were involved in the Top of the Hill. Q. What gambling activity was Benny Binion involved in at that time? A. I have no idea. Q. Was Benny Binion involved in any gambling at that time? A. I don't know. There's no way I'd know. Did you ever see Benny Binion gamble? A. Ever see him gamble, no, never did. Q. Did you know Johnny Avon? A. Johnny Avon, not well. He had had a gambling place around there before I ever got there. He wasn't in gambling when I was there. Q. Did you know Berle Cheek? 58 45 A. Who? Q. Berle Cheek. A. Berle Cheek, yes, I knew him, too. He had been in gambling prior to my going to Dallas. Q. What kind of gambling was he involved in? A. I don 't really know but I knew he was a gambler. Q. Was he involved in gambling while you were there? A. No. Let me see. wait a minute now. We borrowed some money from Berle Cheek, I think, while I was at the Top of the Hill, I don't know, $10,000 or something. Q. When you say we, you mean you and Fred Browning? A. Me and Kirkwood at the Four Duces. Q. You and W.C. Kirkwood? A. Yes. In two or three days we gave it back to him because we didn't want his money. Q. Was there any loan sharking activity going on in the Dallas area at that time? A. Not that I know of. Q. Did you know Benny Bickers? A. Yes, very well. Q. What gambling activity was Mr. Bickers involved in? A. I don't know. I really don't know what he was involved in. 59 45 Q. Did you know that he worked with Benny Binion in a numbers activity in that area? A. No. Q. Did you know Ben Whittaker? A. Very well. Q. What kind of gambling activity was Mr. Whittaker involved in? A. Mr. Whittaker had race horses and all he did, that I knew of, was bet on his own horses, go to the track, a very nice man. Q. Did he run a gambling operation? A. Not that I know of. He didn't run one while I was there. Q. What kind of gambling was Fred Browning involved in? A. He was involved in the Top of the Hill Terrace. Q. Was he involved in any other gambling? A. No. he had the Top of the Hill for years. Q. Did he ever work with Benny Binion in gambling? A. Fred Browning? Q. Fred Browning. A. Not that I know of. Q. Did JaCk Ruby know Benny Binion? A. No. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Ivy Miller? 60 46 A. No. Q. Would Jack Ruby have known of Benny Binion? A. I don't think so. I wouldn't know why he would have known him. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Johnny Avon? A. No. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Berle Cheek? A. No, not that I know of. I have to say not that I know of because I'm positive he didn't. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Red Scarborough? A. No. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Benny Bickers? A. I don't think so. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Ben Whittaker? A. No. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Fred Browning? A. I think we were closed. I don't believe he did know Fred Browning. We were closed when I met Jack, I'm positive of it. Q. How organized was gambling in the Dallas area? A. I really don't know. There's no way I'd know how it was organized. Q. Was Dallas an open or a closed city? A. It had a few crap games in it. I don't know if you'd call that open or closed or whatever it was. But it 61 47 had a few crap games like more cities in the United States at that time. Q. Did the individual who was running a particular crap game have to get anyone else's permission to do A. Have to do what, sir? Get anyone else's permission. A. I really don't know. I was just working there. Q. When you ran your gambling places in the Dallas area, did you have to pay any money to anyone? A. No, sir. we were sneaking as I told you a while ago. Q. You were what? A. We were sneaking, what we call sneaking. I don't know how to explain it. We were doing it against the law I guess you'd call it. Q. Did any of these secret gambling operations have troubles with the police? A. Yes. they got raided every once in a while. The Rangers would raid them. Hell, the sheriff would raid them a lot of times. Q. When you say the Rangers, you mean the Texas Rangers? A. Yes. Q. Did anyone ever have to pay off the police? A. Not that I know of. I wasn't in a position to 62 48 know that but I wouldn't think so. I really don't know about that because I wasn't involved in it. Q. Did anyone have to pay off the prosecuter? A. I wouldn't think so. Q. Were you aware of a crackdown on gambling in the Dallas area in 1947 when a new prosecuter came into office? A. Yes, there was a crackdown, sure was. I don't know if it was the prosecuter. Q. Would that have been when Steve Guthrie became the sheriff? A. I really don't recall. Q. What effect did this crackdown have on gambling? How successful was the crackdown? A. There just wasn't any more gambling. I thought it was Kefauver that did it. I'm not sure. What time was Kefauver, '58? Was it that late, '58? MR. WOLF: Early '50's. MR. PURDY: Kefauver was early '50's. A. As I understand that was the crackdown in gambling everywhere. BY MR. PURDY: Q. But you recall a crackdown in Dallas in 1947 either with the new sheriff or when Will Wilson came in? A. I remember we got closed up, we got raided around Dallas. 63 49 Q. Did this crackdown cause anyone to leave Dallas? A. I'm sure all the dealers left. Q. Do you recall people leaving Dallas and going to Las Vegas around 1947? A. A number of them, yes, a number of people came out here. Most everybody came out here. Q. Do you remember Benny Binion leaving at that time? A. Yes. Q. Who else do you remember left at that time? A. I don't know if it was at that time or not, but I remember Benny Binion left there. Who else left there? Let me see, a fellow named Jess Zilliack. Q. How do you spell his name? A. I don't know, Zilliack. Q. Who else left Dallas and went to Vegas, do you remember? A. Fred Browning even came out here but he didn't come out here to do business. He brought race horses out here. He had a track out here about that time. There's a lot of people. Everybody came out here over the years because there wasn't any place to gamble but here Q. After the crackdown on gambling in the Dallas area, could you please describe for us how much gambling went on in the Dallas area between 1947 and, say, 1958 when you last 64 50 had contact with Jack Ruby in Dallas? A. Well, they had stag parties. We did have stag parties for a while where they run them in the country clubs. That was the extent of the gambling around Dallas. Q. What type of gambling went on at these stag parties? A. Dice games. Q. How often were they held? A. Maybe once a month, most every two months. Q. Did Jack Ruby ever go to any of those stag parties? A. Never Q. Did you ever go to them? A. Sure, I went to them. Q. If Jack Ruby had gone to them, would you have known about it? A. Oh, yes, I would have seen him. If you saw him once, you'd never forget him with the hat on. Q. If Jack Ruby had gone to the stag parties, would you have seen him there? A. Yes, I wouldn't have known him, but I would have seen him, I would have remembered him because I do remember faces. Q. Was there any link between Dallas and Las Vegas in terms of gambling between, say, '47 and 1960? 65 51 A. I'd have to say no. Q. Did you know Harry Urban? A. Didn't know him intimately I knew him to speak to him. Q. Did you know he was a partner of Benny Binion? A. No. Q. Was Harry Urban involved in any gambling in the Dallas area? A. I don't think so. Q. Were you familiar--go ahead. A. I forgot what I was going to say. Q. Which clubs were the stag parties held in? A. The stag party was held at the, let's see, it was the country club out on. there was one downtown. I can't think of the name. The Main Street Club or something. It was at the corner of Field and Main. We held them there. I mean I ran them a pretty good while, maybe six or seven times. There was a country club out on the, kind of a freeway there. They changed the name of it since then. I don't recall the name of it. Then there was one named the Cipango Club. Q. Who ran the operation at the Cipango Club? A. Ivy Miller and Earl Dalton. Scarborough was dead. Q. During what time period did they run that? A. Like I said, I don't recall. I think it was the 66 52 late '40's maybe, I don't know. Q. Did they run the Cipango Club at all during the '50's? A. The club is still there, I think, but not gambling. Q. Did they have any of the stag parties at the Cipango Club during the '50's? A. That's what they call stag parties but they let their wives come, too. They just called it stag parties. Q. Did that go on during the '50's? A. No, it stopped, I'd say, in the late '40's. There wasn't too many out there, maybe five or six. Q. Who ran the operation in the country club when they had the stag parties? A. Who ran the gambling? I ran it myself but the same two people I mentioned, Scarborough and Miller. Q. You had said Dalton and Miller? A. I meant Dalton and Miller. Scarborough was dead Q. Did you also run the operation at the Cipango Club with them? A. Yes, I ran the stags for them. Q. And did you also run the operation at the club on Main Street with them? A. Gambling, yes. Q. Were any of the stag parties held during the 67 53 1950's? A. No, I'd have to say no. I'm not for sure, but have to say no for sure. Q. What kind of gambling went on at the stag parties? A. Just dice games. Q. I believe previously in response to my question about gambling between 1947 and 1958, you said stag parties were held. Are you now changing that and saying that they didn't go on in the '50's? A. I don't recall, to tell you the truth. It could have gone on in maybe '51. I don 't know for sure. There's no way I can remember. But I told you that I did run them for them. That's all I can tell you. I don 't know what years exactly. The last years I don't know. I just don't know. It could be and it could not be, I just don't know. Q. Did any gambling go on in Dallas in the 1950's? A. No. Q. Was there any gambling in private homes in the '50's? A. There could have been, I don 't know about that. Q. You left for Cuba, you said, in 1958? A. '58. Q. So if there was no gambling in the '50's, that means that-- A. (Interrupting) It was in the '50's in Fort 68 54 Worth. I told you that I was running this place sneaking over in Fort Worth. Q. Was Jack Ruby involved in any gambling in the 1950's. A. He was involved in nothing in the way of gambling, no way. Q. Were you interviewed by the FBI in Las Vegas on November 25, 1963? A. Yes, sir. I don't know if it was the exact date or not. They like to ran me crazy. I'd be working and they would call me out of the pit to talk to them. I finally asked them, I said. "Please come out to my home and let me talk to you." I was interviewed by them many times. Did you tell the FBI on November 25, 1963, that Jack Ruby had been involved in gambling as a player? A. No, I did not because he never had been involved in gambling as a player. Like I say, Jack Ruby wouldn't bet 25 cents on anything. Q. The FBI report dated November 27, 1963, which is a report of your interview with the FBI on November 25, 1963. which was conducted in Las Vegas, Nevada, by special agents Stevens and Salisbury, that report says that you stated, the report says, "He stated he does not know Ruby to have ever been involved in any bookie activity or in any gambling of any nature other than as a player." 69 A. He never played in his life. I never saw him play. Does that accurately reflect what you told the FBI on November 25, 1963, that Ruby was involved as a player? A. No. sir, I didn't tell them that. I did not tell them that. I have never seen Ruby gamble on anything. And, incidentally, when I went to Arruba, the day I left. the FBI went to my mother, went to my sisters, my brothers, and Jack Ruby had happened to be visiting me in my apartment when my mother and sister were visiting me, and they thought he was the finest man in the world and that's what my mother told the FBI. I 'm sure. So I asked Mr. Stevens, I said. "If you don't mind, my sister has been with the Veterans Hospital for many years and she's the head nurse there in the operating room, charge of the operating room", I gave him a number at home, and I said. "If you will call her after 5:30. she'll invite you out to the house and talk to you." Well, they went up there and like to scared her to death. So the day I went to Arruba, Mr. Stevens. I 'm glad to remember that name. he came out to the house and told my wife I had been cleared of any wrong doing and my wife asked him. "Well, what's he been cleared of. he hasn't done any- thing." "Just known this nut", which it turns out he was. I didn't know he was that nutty. 70 56 Q. When was that that your family members met Jack Ruby? A. I don't know, it was in the '50's. It was in the '50's.I can only recall the year. I'm sure they have a record of it, my mother and my sister both. He had a habit of, if he met anyone. like herd meet you, he'd want to know your name. he'd want to know your address, what your birthday was. and he would send you a birthday card, a Christmas card. I don't know why he did that but that was a habit he had. Q. when was it that you went to Arruba? A. Arruba in '64, I believe. Q Was it just a coincidence that the FBI came to you the day you were leaving for Arruba? A. It was after I went to Arruba and Mr. Stevens told my wife' that I had been cleared of anything. I don't know what the devil he was talking about. Q. Do you know any oilmen in Dallas, the Dallas area? A. A lot of oilmen played at the Top of the Hill, quite a few. Q. who were some of those oilmen? A. Hell. I don't recall the names any more. Let Be see. there was a fellow named Cartaway, he was an oilman. Sid Richardson would come out there, he didn't do much playing. I don't think he played at all. Billy Byers, a 71 57 man named Billy Byers, he played out there. Big oilmen, H. L. Hunt. he played out there. Q. How often did H. L. Hunt gamble out there? A. Not very often. He would go upstairs and eat. We gave away the food. And he would take 12 people up there and wouldn't tip the waiter but he would gamble, he did gamble. Q. Was Jack Ruby ever there when any oilmen were there? A. No, I never knew Jack Ruby when the Top of the Hill was open. I'm almost positive that I met Jack Ruby after it was closed. Q. Did you know Harry Hall? A. I knew a dealer years and years ago by the name of Harry Hall. Hell, he's been dead 30, 40 years. Q. He also went by the name Harry Sinclair, Jr. A. No. Q. Or Harry Haler, H-a-l-e-r? A. No. Q. Regarding Mr. Bill Byers. do you recall an incident when a number of people considered robbing him? A. No. I didn't knew he ever got robbed. He lived in Tyler, Texas. He didn't live in Dallas. Q. Did Jack Ruby know H. L. Hunt? A. No, I'm positive he didn't. 72 58 Q. Did Jack Ruby know Bill Byers? A. No, he never knew any of those people that I talking about. Q. Did Dick Anconi ever come to the Top of the Hill Club? A. No, I knew Dick Anconi. Dick Anconi was a big Oilman. He died a number of years ago. Q. Did Jack Ruby know him? A. No. Q. Were you familiar with the Petroleum Club? A. No, I know where it was but you couldn't go in there unless you were an oilman. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Sid Richardson? A. No. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Dewey Groom? A. Who? Q. Dewey Groom. A. How do you spell it? Q. G-R-O-O-M. A. I don 't know. I don't know who he knew . I've never heard of him. Q. You've never heard of Groom? A. No. Q. Do you know Marry Field? A. Marty who? 73 59 Q. Marry Field. A. He used to work at the Sands a few years ago, also used to work in Cuba. also went by the name of Marty Schwartz when he was a fighter. A. No, I don't think I knew him. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Joe Civello? A. Joe Civello. I don't think he did. Q. Did you know Joe Civello? A. I knew him. yes. I didn't know him intimately, but I knew him to speak to him. Q. What did Joe Civello do for a living? A. I have no idea. He had a whiskey store, that's where I met him, in a whiskey store. Q. Did he ever gamble, to your knowledge? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Did he ever go to any of your clubs? A. No, never did. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Joe or Sam Campisi? A. I'm sure he did, yes. They have a restaurant there. Q. What restaurant did they run? A. Egyptian Lounge. Q. Were you ever with Jack Ruby when he was with either of the Campisis? A. I could have eaten out there with Jack Ruby but 74 60 that was all. Q. There might have been a time when you all ate together? A. They would come over and say hello probably or something like that. They were pretty good hosts Q Do you recall h/ring dinner with Jack Ruby and the Campisis in 1954 or '55? A. I don't recall it but it's possible. Q. were you ever present with either of the Campisis when Jack Ruby was present when business deals were discussed? A. No, they would have no business dealings with Jack Ruby. Q. Do you know whether or not the Campisis ever went to Ruby's club? A. Everybody went to Ruby's club to see those hippies. Q. I don't know that they did. but I'd have to say they had been. Q. Were the Campisis ever involved in gambling? A. Not that I know of. Q. Did they ever come to your club? A. No. Q. Did you know Johnnie Grizzaffi? A. No, not that I recall him. I don't recall knowing him. What did he do? 75 61 Q. Johnnie Grizzaffi was an associate of Lois Green and Beeny Binion. A. No. Q. Did you know Sidney Siedband? A. Who ? Q. Sidney Siedband, S-i-e-d-b-a-n-d. A. No. Q. Did you know Jack Todd? A. Jack Todd, yes, I knew Jack Todd. Q. What did Jack Todd do? A. Jack Todd, to tell you the truth, I don't know what Jack Todd did. He was in Cuba, too. Q. What did Jack Todd do in Cuba? A. Just came over there visiting. Q. Did he see you when he was in Cuba? A. I saw him once or twice, yes. Q. When was that that he visited Cuba? A. I don't know. I don 't have any idea. Q. Would that have been the late A. It had to be the late '50's. Q. Was jack Ruby there at the time Jack Todd was there? A. I don 't think he was. I'm positive he wasn't I can't say for sure but I'm positive he wasn't. Did Jack Ruby know Jack Todd? 76 62 A. I'm sure he did. I 'm not positive he did but I would say he did. Everybody who went to that club knew Jack Ruby. Q. Was Jack Todd a safe cracker? A. I don 't really know. I wouldn't have any way of knowing. Q. Did Jack Todd gamble? A. I don't recall ever seeing him gamble. Q. Did he have any business dealings with you? A. Not any with me. no. Q. Do you know anyone he had business dealings with? A. No. Q. Are you familiar with Sue's Used Car Lot? A. Whose? Q. Sue's Used Car Lot. A. What city is that in? Q. In the Dallas area? A. No. never been around a car lot in my life. Q. Do you know that Jack Ruby and Jack Todd often frequented Sue's Used Car Lot? A. No, I didn't. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Izzy Miller? A. It's possible. They're both jewish, it's possible. Q. Did you know Izzy Miller? A. Yes. 77 Q. What did he do for a living? 63 A. I don't know what he did. He was a crap dealer for awhile. Q. Did he ever gamble at your club? A. No. Q. Did Jack Ruby know John Eli Stone? A. Who? Q. Johnny Eli Stone. A. Not that I know of. Q. Do you know him? A. I wouldn't know. I don't know who he knew. But I wouldn't think so. I never heard of him. Q. You never heard of Johnny Eli Stone? A. How do you spell the last name? Q. S-t-o-n-e. A. I know Johnny Stone, .yes, but Jack Ruby would never know Johnny Stone. Johnny Stone, when I knew him, ran a bar up on. called it the Turf Bar. Q. was there any gambling at the Turf Bar? A. Not that I ever saw. Q. Do you know why Jack Ruby moved to Dallas? A. I have no idea. Q. Did you and Jack Ruby ever discuss why he came to Dallas? A. No, never. 78 Q. You said before that Jack Ruby discussed Chicago with you generally. A. He said he came up in Chicago and he came up in a poor neighborhood and he would talk about what a rough time he had when he was a kid and that's the extent of his talk about Chicago. Q. Did he ever discuss anyone he grew up with? A. No. Q. Did he ever discuss any people he still knew in Chicago? A. No, never. Q. Do you know if Jack Ruby knew Barney Baker? A. Barney Baker? Barney Baker. no. Q. Did you know Mr. Baker? A. No, I did not. Q Did Jack Ruby know Lenny Patrick? A. Lenny Patrick, I have no idea. He could have I don't even know who Lenny Patrick was myself. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Dave yaras? A. I don't know. I don't think so. Q. Did you know Dave Yaras? A. I knew who he was. Q. Had you ever met him? A. I don't think so. I knew his brother. He had a brother named Sam Yaras. I don't think I ever met Dave. 79 65 Is his name Dave? Is that the name? I don't think I ever met him. I met his brother. His brother had slot machines. He was a slot machine man, repaired slot machines. Q. Where did he repair slot machines? A. Right in his building. Q. What city was that in? A. I believe it was Field Street. I 'm not sure. I wouldn't say for sure. Q. What city was that in? A. Dallas. In fact, his brother died in Dallas. Q. Do you remember when Sam Yaras came to Dallas? A. Who ? Q. Do you know when Sam yaras came to Dallas? A. I have no idea. Q. Do you know if Jack Ruby knew Sam Yaras? A. No, he didn't know him. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Paul Dorfman? A. I have no idea. I don't know who Paul Dorfman is. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Lawrence Meyers? A. Lawrence who? Q. Meyers. A. I don't know. I don't know him. Q. Did anyone from outside of Dallas consider moving to Dallas to get into gambling operations? 80 66 A. I don't know. I really don't know. Q. Did you ever hear of outside gamblers wanting to come into Dallas? A. No, it's a possibility that it would happen and I wouldn't know anything about it because it wasn't any of my business. Q. Was Jack Ruby involved in any prostitution related activities? A. prostitution? Q. Related activities- A. No. Q. Were any of his employees involved in prostitution? A. Not that I know of, no. I don't know 'about the Carousel, that's a different proposition. I don't know about that. I don't think he would be, Q. was it common in Dallas for club employees to be involved in prostitution? A. No, I don't think so. I never heard of it. Q. Was there much prostitution in Dallas? A. Not too much, by George, there wasn't too much. Q. Where was the prostitution that there was? A. I don't know where it was. Q. Did it operate out of hotels? A. It's a possibility they worked out of hotels. 81 67 Q. Did you know a woman named Helen Alfonse Roan? A. Helen Alfonse what? Q. Roan, R-o-a-n- A. Not that I recall. no. Q. Do you know if Jack Ruby had close relations with any of his employees? A. No. I don't- Q. Do you know whether or not there was any narcotics activity in the Dallas area? A. Never heard of it. never. Q. Did you know Paul Rowland Jones? A. No. I didn't know of him. I've read about him. It seemed like he got into some trouble in Mexico. It seemed like when I read about him. he got into some kind of trouble in Mexico. I never knew him. Q. Did Jack Ruby know him? A. No; I couldn't say for sure but I wouldn't think so. Q. Did Jack Ruby know James or Bunny Breen, B-r-e-e-n? A. I never heard of them. See, a lot of these people you're asking me if Jack Ruby knew, he could have known them and I didn't know it. But as far as I know. I didn't (know them myself.) Q. Was there any illegal gun sales in Dallas when you were there? 82 68 A. No. not that I know of. Q. Was there any transportation of guns to or from other places? A. Not that I know and I'm positive that there wasn't. Q. Did you know Robert Ray McKeown? A. No, I never heard of him either. I read about him in some of those articles about him but I never heard of him. Q. You didn't know if Jack Ruby knew him? A. No. If he had, I think he would have told me if he knew of those people you said about. He's that kind of fellow. I never heard of any of these people you're asking most of them. Q. Did you know of a John Thomas Mason? A. No, John Thomas Mason. Q. Did Jack Ruby know of him? A. I don't believe so. Like I tell you, I don't know who he knew. He could have known several of those people I wouldn't know it. you know. Q. Did you know Joseph Merola. M-e-r-o-l-a? A. No. Q. Did Jack Ruby know him? A. I don't know. Q. To your knowledge. 83 69 A. I have to keep telling you I don't know who Jack Ruby knew, but I wouldn't think so. Maybe he did, I don't know. Q. You stated previously that you did not ask Jack Ruby for four guns in 1954? A. I don't recall that, no. I've been asked several times and I don't recall it. Q. Does it refresh your recollection to know that Jack Ruby said that you requested four Cobras in 1959? A. No. it doesn't. The only gun I can remember is a gun he sent out here and I let it go back, didn't take it out of the-- Q. (interrupting) Can you think of any reason you would have wanted guns in 1959? A. No reason I would have wanted guns in '59. I was in Cuba. I 'd get myself killed if I had guns over there. Q. You stated previously that, to your knowledge. Jack Ruby only owned one gun? A. One gun as far as I know. He could have owned two or three but I didn't know about it. There wouldn't be any way I'd know it. Q. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in June of 1964 by special agents McFaul and Stevens in Vegas? A. I remember being interviewed by the FBI a lot 84 70 of times. I don't knew the exact dates. Q. Did you tell the FBI in June of 1964 that Jack Ruby kept a couple of guns at his residence although he was not a gun collector? A. If I did, I don't recall that. The only gun I ever saw that Jack Ruby had was a gun that he carried in a sack, when he closed up at night, he'd take his gun out of his sack and put it in his pocket and go deposit his money and then put the gun in his glove compartment. That is all I recall. Q. If you told the FBI in June of 1964 that you had seen a couple of old guns in Jack Ruby is residence, would that have been the truth at that time? A. That I saw a couple of old guns? It's a possibility that he had two guns. I don't remember, to tell you the truth. But I do remember the gun that he always had on him when he went out to his club. Q. You mentioned earlier a couple of times when Jack Ruby asked you for help. One was with reference to the curfew problem and one was with reference to AGVA. Did he ever call you for help on any other matter? A. No, not a thing. Q. Did you ever ask him for help on anything? A. No. Q. Why did Jack Ruby think to call you long distance 85 71 to ask about his problems with AGVA? A. He was just like that. He would call me on most any of his darn problems. He was just like that. Q. Did he call about any other problems? A. That's the only problem he had, I guess, was the AGVA and Miller, he got it taken care of that same day, I belive. It must have been a minor thing or something. Q. Did you have any previous contacts with AGVA that would make him think that you could help him? A. No, I don't think he would know I had any con- tacts. He just called me and asked me if I knew anyone that knew the president of AGVA. It just happened that I did know Miller and I called Miller to help him. Q. Were you familiar at all with AGVA in Dallas? A. Not at all. Q. While you were there. A. No. Q. Did you know Vincent Lee? A. Who? Q. Vincent Lee who worked for AGVA in Dallas. A. Vincent Lee, no, I didn't. Q. Did you know James Henry Dolan who worked for AGVA in Dallas? A. It seems like I met him. Did he work for AGVA? Was that the union he worked for? 86 72 Q. He did work for a while. A. He worked for some union. I didn't know what union it was. I met him once or twice, I think. Q. Do you know anything about his activities with the union? A. Nothing. I didn't evenknow it was AGVA. I knew it was a union. Q. Did you ever have any dealings with any other unions? A. None whatsoever. Q. Do you know Tony Pappa? A. No. Q. Do you know Mike Shore? A. No. Q. What can you tell us about Jack Ruby's relations with the Dallas Police Department? A. I can just tell you--I've been asked that before. too. He was always, I don't know. I guess he thought it would help his place. He was always courteous to them. At Christmas time I think he would give some of them presents, whiskey or something. That's my idea. I don't know for sure. He was very close with them. A TV announcer there named, I can't think of his name, but one of the TV announcers, he just liked to get everywhere. Q. Was it Gordon McLendon? 87 73 A. I think that 's the name, yes. He knew Gordon very well. I 'd hear him speak of him all the time. Q. I'm sorry, you would hear Jack Ruby speak of McLendon? A. Yes; maybe he ran ads with him or something. I don't know. Just like Tony, I think the reason he knew Tony was on account of his ads in the papers and things, I would say. Q. Did you know Gordon McLendon? A. No, sir. Q. Did Jack Ruby ever talk to you about Gordon McLendon? A. To tell you the truth, he either introduced Brescia, in that letter I gave you, to Gordon or Brescia introduced him to Gordon McLendon. I'm not sure which way it was. But Brescia used to come to Dallas with a professional basketball team. What's the name of that trick team? Q. Globetrotters? A. It was another one. It was a well-known team. And Brescia was a publicity man for them. Q. Did Jack Ruby have any friends with the Dallas Police Department? A. I really don't know. I have no idea. I wasn't that familiar with him to know who his friends were. 88 74 Q. Did Jack Ruby ever tell you that he had pull with the Dallas Police Department? A. No, he didn't. Q. To your knowledge, did Jack Ruby ever exercise any pull with the Dallas Police Department? A. Not to my knowledge, no. Q. Were you familiar with the Dallas Police Associa- tion? A. No. sir. I don't think I knew many policemen in Dallas. Q. Did you know Lieutenant George Butler who formerly headed the Dallas Police Association? A. I didn't know him intimately. I knew who he was. Q. What did you know about Lieutenant Butler? A. I think he was the head of the vice squad, I be- lieve. I'm not sure. Q. How did you happen to know him? A. I don't remember how I met him. Q. Was he an associate of H. L. Hunt? A. I wouldn't think so. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Lieutenant George Butler? A. Did Jack Ruby know Butler? I wouldn't think so. He could have, I don't know. Q. Did Jack Ruby ever complain that he had some problems with the police other than that one curfew incident? 89 75 A. That's the only time I ever heard of. I think it was about a curfew. I sent him to Schepps. He said he was being harassed because he was Jewish and I said the man for you to go to see is go see Mr. Schepps and explain it to him. Maybe he can straighten it out. Q. Did members of the Dallas Police Department ever come to Jack Ruby for information? A. Not that I know of. Q. Did members of the FBI office in Dallas ever come to Jack Ruby for information? A. I don't know but I wouldn't think so. Q. During the time you were in Dallas, did organized crime have any impact on activities in Dallas? A. Organized crime, no. Like I told you, the people that had the gambling there was Miller and Scarborough and Dalton, as far as I know. Q. So it was your impression that it was a local operation? A. Local Operation. Q. Was there anyone from outside who had an influence on Dallas that you know of? A. Not that I know of. I would have to say no. Q. On November 20. 1963. what contact did you have with an agency of the federal government? A. On what? 90 Q. On November 20, 1963. did you have any contact with any agency of the government? A. Maybe it was the FBI questioning me. Q. That was prior to the assassination. A. Was that prior? Q. Yes. A. I don't know of any in '63, no. Q. Do you recall on November 20, 1963, that you applied for the renewal of a work card in Nevada? A. Sure. Q. Do you remember around that time that you had to get a renewal? A. '63, let me see, '63, that was when I got into the Thunderbird, yes. Q. What did you have-- A. I got a sheriff's card. Q. A what? A. A sheriff's card. You had to get a sheriff's card. I 've got one in my pocket. Do you want to see it? Would you like to see? Q. Sure. A. Everybody that works here has to have one of these. Q. So the fact that you were applying for the work card was not because you were in any kind of trouble? 91 A. Of course not. Q. Did you have a card previously? A. I had a card. I've got it somewhere. Here is one I had downtown (indicating). MR. PURDY: Mr. McWillie is showing me a Las Vegas Police Department registration card, A-58376. which is a permanent card. He's listed as a pit boss. His address and signature and the signature of the Chief of Police are listed. THE WITNESS: That's a sheriff's card. I got that in '63 when I came here. MR. PURDY. He's also handed me a Clark County Sheriff's Department ID card. No. 63658, which is dated February 15, 1963. His name is listed. He has signed it and it is signed by Sheriff Ralph Lamb, L-a-m-b. THE WITNESS. And it shows where I worked at the Thunderbird, they scratched it out. This other card was a permanent card. When you work downtown, you have to have one of these (indicating), it was permanent. Now you have to have one of these (indicating).You don't have to have this combined now with the sheriff. BY MR. PURDY: Q. So right now all you need is a card from the police department and you don't need a card from the sheriff's office? 92 78 A. You have to have a card from the sheriff's office, not this card (indicating). Q. Not the Las Vegas Police Department card. A. The sheriff is more or less a police chief. Q. Since you still have and obviously had or was issued in February of 1963, what reason would you have had in November of 1963 to apply for any other kind of card? A. 1963, maybe that was when I was going to Arruba. I had to go to the police chief, I think, and I had to get a letter from the police chief to get cleared down there because they cleared you through Scotland Yards and the FBI and the local here. That's the only thing I can recall. Q. Do you recall a Mr. Robert Kellerer, an identification officer with the Reno Sheriff's Office? A. No. I don't. Q. Did you-- A. (Interrupting) I had a card up there, too. I threw it away I think. Q. On November 20, 1963, would there have been any reason that you would have needed to contact the Reno Sheriff's Office for a renewal of a card or for any other reason? A. Maybe they contacted them down here. That's probably what happened. Q. By November 20, 1963, you had already moved from 93 Reno to Las Vegas, is that right? A. November '63, yes, I came here in '63 at the Thunderbird. Now, it's a possibility that checking me out, they checked with the Reno Police Department. I would have to say that they might do that. They would do that, wouldn't they? Q. Mr. McWillie, you stated previously that you re- ceived a phone call from Jack Ruby sometime in 1963 about his problems with AGVA? A. That's right. Q. About when in. 1963 was that? A. It was the early part of 1963, I think. Let me see. '63 now. I went to the Thunderbird in '63. It had to be the early part of '63. Doesn't the FBI have it on its report? I told them about it. I 'm sure they do. It 's hard for me to remember dates. Q. We understand. I think you're doing very well. Now, that communication had been in the form of telephone calls, right? A. He must have called me three or four times. The FBI even asked me why he called me. Q. After that contact with Jack Ruby, what other contact did you have with him prior to the assassination? A. He would write me letters about his club, the new club he had and how beautiful it was and about the razor. 94 80 blades, he sent me some razor blades once or twice, Sheffield razor blades I think they called them. Q. Did you and Jack Ruby ever talk again on the phone prior to the assassination? A. Prior to the assassination? Q. Right. A. Just about the AGVA. Q. Did you see Jack Ruby again after those phone calls about the AGVA and prior to the assassination? A. No, never saw him again. Q. When was the last time that you saw Jack Ruby prior to the assassination? A. The last time I saw Jack Ruby prior to the assassination, I was driving from Miami to Cal-Neva Lodge where I was going to work in June in 1961. I stopped at his house and slept there that night and then drove on. Q. Did you see Jack Ruby again after the assassina- tion? A. Never, never seen Jack Ruby after that time I saw him. Q. Did you and Jack Ruby ever exchange any letters after the assassination? A. No, sir. I had all I wanted of Jack Ruby. Every time I turned around the FBI was questioning me about him. You know I wouldn't write him. I'm not that silly. 95 81 Q. Did you and Jack Ruby ever talk on the phone after the assassination? A. No. sir. Q. Did you and Jack Ruby ever send any messages of any kind to each other after the assassination? A. No, sir. After the assassination I didn't want to hear his name again. MR. WOLF: Let the record reflect that we've re- turned to Mr. McWillie the original letters that he received from his brother concerning Tony Zoppi and the trip to Cuba. THE WITNESS: My brother got it from Matty Brescia and Matty Brescia got it from Tony Zoppi. BY MR. WOLF: Q. Mr. McWillie, I'd now like to question you con- cerning the time when you were in Cuba and several individuals you may have met while you were there. You've testified that you moved to Cuba in approximately the middle of 1958, is that correct? A. I went there in '58, yes, right. Q. Was that your first trip to Cuba? A. I had been to Cuba, I took my mother and wife and daughter to Cuba in the '40's, just for a trip overnight on a boat. We took a ship over there, the Florida, I think they called it. Q. Had you been there any other time prior to the 96 82 middle of 1958? A. No Q. On your first trip in 1958, how long did you stay in Cuba? A. I stayed until we broke relations with Cuba in '61, January 1, 1961. Q. And you testified that when you moved to Cuba, you went to work at the Tropicana Hotel, is that correct? A. That's right. Q. And how did you obtain the job at the Tropicana Hotel while you were in Dallas? A. A fellow called me from Cuba and asked me if I'd be interested in going over there to work and I set up an appointment and went there and talked to them and then went back to Dallas and went back to Cuba in about a week, I believe. Q. So you did return to Dallas after the first trip to Cuba? A. I think maybe a week, ten days. Q. Who was that who called A. A fellow named Johnny Williams. Q. How did he get your name? A. I met him in Dallas. I don't know how I met him but I did meet him and he found out I was in the gambling business and he said, "Maybe I can get you a good job over 97 83 in Cuba." Sure enough, he called me a week or so after he left Dallas. Q. Where did Mr. Williams work? A. Mr. Williams didn't work. I don't know what Mr. Williams did, to tell you the truth. Q. Where did he live? A. He lived in Boston. Q. And where did you first meet Mr. Williams? A. I met him in Dallas. Q. He was just visiting at that time? A. Sir? Q. He was just visiting at that time? A. He was just visiting Dallas. I don't recall how I met him, but I met him in Dallas. Q. And who did you see when you first went to Cuba for the interview? A. I went to see the Foxes. They had a meeting there was Martinez Fox and Oscar Cheninder. Q. Was Pedro Fox present? A. Pedro Fox, that's Martinez's brother. There were several Cubans there and an interpreter. Q. Were the Foxes the owners of the Tropicana? A. They were the only owners. I was the only American in there. Q. Do you know Mr. T.W. Richardson? A. Yes, sir, sure do. 98 84 Q. And how do you know Mr. Richardson? A. How long have I known him? Q. How long have you known and how do you know Mr. Richardson? A. I 've known Mr. Richardson since I started dealing dice about 40 some odd years ago, 47 years ago. Q. You met him in Dallas? A. No, I met him in Mississippi. I was dealing dice in Mississippi then. Q. Did Mr. Richardson have any connection with Cuba? A. I think T.W. had something to do with the managing the Capri. Q. Did you see him while you were in Cuba? A. Didn't see him too much. I did see him in Cuba. Q. Did you see him that first time when you went over to take the job at the Tropicana? A. No, I didn't see him. He didn't know I was there. T.W. was in the Riverside Hotel and he left. He was the manager of the Riverside Hotel. I took his place when he resigned in 162, I think. But I've known T.W. for years. He's a very nice man. Q. You stated that you met the Foxes when you first went over to interview for your job with the Tropicana and you also stated that you were promised a percentage of the Tropicana if things were successful. 99 85 A. Martinez promised me a percentage if it ever did any business, but it never did any business. That was right at the time of the revolution. Do you have what date I went over to work there? Q. Approximately September of '58. A. I was going to say August. It must have been September. Q. Was the Tropicana successful prior to the revo- lution? A. It had been successful. It was a very beautiful place, beautiful shows, beautiful gaming room. Q. Were the Foxes financially well off? A. Yes, I'm sure they were. Q. Were they the whole owners of the casino? A. Were they what? Q. Were they the whole and sole owners of the casino? A. Yes, I would say they were. I 'd have to say I'm almost positive. Q. They had no partners? A. No. Q. Do you know if they ever received financial backing from anybody? A. They didn't need any financial backing. Q. Did they ever get any loans from anybody? 100 86 A. I wouldn't think so because they had a big business that made nothing but money for years and years. They had the numbers and every other thing. Q. Do you know, did Jack Ruby know the Foxes? A. Yes, I introduced him to the Foxes. Q. When he came to Cuba? A. When he came there, I introduced him, yes. Q. Did he have any other dealings with the Foxes? A. He ran around with me. The whole time he was there he was running around me except when he went to bed. Q. What happened to the Foxes when the government closed the hotel? A. Well, they eventually all went to Miami. Q. They did not stay in Cuba? A. Sir? Q. They did not stay in Cuba? A. They stayed there for a while but eventually they left and went to Miami. Q. And you took a job at the Capri Hotel, is that correct? A. Right. Q. Who did you know at the Capri Hotel to get the Job ? A. If I remember correctly, I think it was Martinez told me to go up there, that I could get a job up there if 101 87 go up there. And I went up there and saw some fellow, Angelo, I don't know his last name, but his first name was Angelo. Q. Could the last mine have been Bruno? A. No. Q. Do you know a Mr. Angelo Bruno? A. I've known him to see him in Cuba. I've seen him in Cuba. I don't know Mr. Bruno. Q. You never met Mr. Bruno? A. No, just to say hello. He knew who I was because in this business I'm a pretty good man in the gambling business. I 've been in it so many years. Q. Do you know a Mr. Willie Bischoff? A. Lefty Clark, that was his name. Wasn't his name Lefty Clark? I never did know his right name. Q. Yes. also known as Lefty Clark. A. I took his place in the Tropicana. They let him go and I took his place there. Q. Why was Mr. Bischoff let go, do you know? A. Well, it had something to do with the Black Jack getting cheated or something, something like that. That's what I heard. I don't know why they let him go. Q. Did you associate with Mr. Bischoff at all after he was let go? A. No, just to say hello. 102 88 Q. Do you know if Jack Ruby knew Mr. Bischoff? A. No. I'm sure he didn't. Q. Do you know a Mr. Babe Baron? A. No, I know who he is. If it's the fellow thinking about, he used to be at the Sands. Q. Yes. A. I don't know him but I know who he is. He may be dead. Is he living? Q. He's still alive. A. I didn't know that. But I know who he is. They call him the General. But I never met him in my life. Q. Did you know that he was in Cuba? A. No, I didn't. Q. Do you know if Jack Ruby knew him at all? A. If Jack Ruby met him? Q. Right. A. I wouldn't think so. Q. Who were the owners of the Capri? A. I don't know. I don't have any idea. I went in there and took charge of the day shift and I don't know how long I was there to tell you the truth. But it wasn't too long. I went to open up one morning and they stuck machine guns in my stomach and I gave them the keys and turned around and walked off. Q. Did you ever work at the Riviera Hotel? 103 89 A. No. Q. Did you have any affiliation with the Riviera? A. No. Q. When you were at the Tropicana, what were your primary duties? A. To manage the casino. Q. Were you familiar generally with the prior management of the casino operation? A. No, not the bookkeeping and all that kind of thing. I was familiar with running, seeing that the games didn't get cheated and the dealers and everything stayed in line. Q. Were you responsible for hiring individuals to work in the casino? A. No. they hired all them. There wasn't nothing but Cubans working there when I was there. Q. Did the casino have to pay a tax to the Cuban government to operate? A. I really don't know. I wouldn't know. Q. Did Cuban officials have to be bribed to have a casino operation? A. I don't know. There wouldn't be any way I'd know that. Q. Were you familiar with any of the Cuban officials in the government at that time? 104 90 A. No. Q. Do you recollect any of their names? A. No, I could not recollect one name. Ventura, I think he was the chief of police, I believe it was, but I didn't know him. I 'd see him come in there with his bodyguards. Q. Do you recall any other names of Cuban officials? A. Officials? Q. Officials who would have responsibility to supervise casinos. A. Supervise the casinos? Q. Or involved generally. A. No. Ventura didn't have nothing to do with the casino. I Just knew him to see him because he was supposed to be a very vicious fellow. Q. How about any other Cuban officials in the government generally, can you recall any of their names? A. No, I wouldn't have any reason to know any of them. Q. Did the casinos make payments to any non-government officials to continue operating, the owners of the casinos? A. No, I wouldn't think so. It belonged to them. Q. The Foxes never discussed that with you? A. I didn't understand. Q. Did the Foxes ever discuss the general operation of the casino with you? 105 91 A. No, in fact, they couldn't even speak English. One could speak English, Pedro. Q. Do you know a Mr. Norman Rothman? A. I know him to see him. Q. Have you ever met Mr. Rothman? A. It was in Cuba, yes. He'd come in and out of the Tropicana every once in a while. He came up and introduced himself to me and shook hands with me. I'd see him gambling there when I'd go around to different places. Q. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Rothman? A. No. Q. Do you know a Mr. Santo Trafficante? A. Know him to see him. Q. Have you ever met Mr. Trafficante? A. Like I say, he knew who I was and he shook hands with me when he saw me. but that was it. I've been asked that a lot of times. too. But I didn't know Mr. Trafficante intimately, no. Q. Did anybody introduce you to him or did he introduce himself to you? A. Maybe Pedro did, I don't know, when he would come in a party or something. Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Trafficante apart from being in Cuba in the casinos? A. Not that I remember, no. 106 92 Q. You never met Mr. Trafficante in the United States? A. Not that I recall. Maybe I did, I don't think so. Q. Are you aware that Mr. Trafficante was imprisoned in Cuba? A. Yes, there were a bunch of them imprisoned. Q. Were you in Cuba at that time? A. Yeah. Q. Did you know why Mr. Trafficante was imprisoned? A. To tell you the truth, I don't. I think they just wanted to get them out of there myself. Q. Did you visit Mr. Trafficante in prison? A. I didn't visit him. I went out there once or twice to visit a fellow, he was a dealer. He had a young son and a wife and he gambled all his money away. At times we would take up a collection amongst dealers and give money. I went out there once or twice to see him. Q. Did you see anybody else in prison? A. I saw everybody out there. Trafficante, I think he was in there. Q. Did you see Mr. Trafficante? A. I saw him but I didn't talk to him. Q. You saw him but you could not talk to him. A. I didn't know him that intimately. Q. Do you know of anybody who did visit Mr. Trafficante in prison? 107 93 A. No, I don't. I went out there with someone but I don't recall who it was. Q. Do you know a John Wilson Hudson? A. Who? Q. A John Wilson Hudson. A. Hudson ? Q. Yes. A. No, sir, I don't. Q. Were you afraid of being imprisoned yourself? A. They never did bother me for some reason. I don't know why. They never did the whole time I was there. Q. Do you have any accounting for that? A. Sir. Q. Do you know any reason why they would not bother you? A. Sir? Q. Do you know any reason why they would not bother you? A. I don't know. It could have been the Foxes, I don't know. I don't know why they didn't but they didn't. I never was arrested there. If I'd have stayed there, I'd probably have gotten arrested after we broke relations with them. I left the first day of January 1961, I think it was. Q. Was Jack Ruby in Cuba visiting you during the time when you went to visit the prison and saw Santo Trafficante 108 94 there? A. I don't think so. He could have been but I don't think so. He could have been but I don't really think he was. I don't remember what date Jack was there. Q. Did you discuss with Jack Ruby the imprisonment of many of the people that were working in Cuba? A. No, I didn't discuss things like that with him. Q. What other individuals did you see during your visit to that prison? Do you remember the names of them? A. I saw Dino, Dino Cellini. He was the manager of the place, too, where I had worked. Q. Which place was that? A. Tropicana. Then he was at the Riviera. Q. And you knew Mr. Cellini? A. I didn't know him initimately. I knew him to talk to him, how's business and this and that. Q. Did you ever have any business dealings with Mr. Cellini? A. Never. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Mr. Cellini? A. No, he wouldn't know Dino. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Mr. Trafficante? A. No. Q. Was Mr. Rothman put in prison? A. I don't think so. I don't believe he was. 109 95 Q. Did you visit Mr. Cellini when he was in prison? A. Sir? Q. Did you visit Mr. Cellini when he was in prison? A. I said hello to him because I knew him. Q. But the primary reason for your going to the prison was-- A. (interrupting) To see this fellow Degeorgio or whatever his name was. Q. Was there only one prison where all the people were kept? A. No, they had two prisons. They had one they called principle, was a real bad prison. This one didn't look like a prison. It had a wire fence around it. Q. What could you do to try and help a friend of yours who was in prison to get out? A. I wasn't trying to help him get out. I Just went out there to say hello to him. Q. Was there anything one could do, even if not yourself, generally? A. No, I don't think so. I wouldn't know, but I wouldn't think they could get them out. Q. Could you bribe anybody to get them out of prison? A. I don't really know about that, I don't know. Q. Did you know Mr. Meyer Lansky? A. No. sir, never laid eyes on him in my life. I know 110 96 his brother, knew his brother. Q. Jake? A. Jake, very fine man. Q. How did you know Jake? A. I knew Jake in Cuba. Q. How did you first meet Jake? A. I don't recall how I met him. I just don't re- call. I did meet him. It might have been through Dino. Q. Did Jack Ruby know Jake Lansky? A. No, positive he didn't. Q. What was the nature of your relationship with Jake Lansky? A. Just to say hello and that's all. Q. Did you ever have dinner with him? A. No. Q. What casino did Mr. Lansky operate at? A. Mr. Lansky was around the Riviera. I don't know if he operated it or what but he was there, Jake Lansky I'm talking about. Q. Did you know Mr. John Roselli? A. I didn't know him. I've seen him around town here like I told the FBI and then Mr. Fenton. I've seen Mr. Roselli around here. Any time I would go in the Sands to see a show. I would see him there. Q. Did you ever see Mr. Roselli outside of Vegas? 111 97 A. Never in my life. Q. You never saw him in Cuba? A. I don't think he was in Cuba when I was there. Q. Did you ever talk to him while he was here in Vegas? A. I never talked to him while he was there. He's kind of a belligerent fellow. I had no reason to say anything to him. Q. Do you know a Mr. Sam Giancana? A. No. Q. Have you heard of Mr. Giancana? A. I don't know him. Q. You never met Mr. Giancana? A. No. Q. Do you know if Mr. Roselli or Mr. Giancana had interests in Cuban casinos? A. There wouldn't it be any way I'd know that. Q. Had you heard that before? A. I never heard of it, no. What attracted me to Mr. Roselli was any time I ever maw him he had on dark glasses, and he was a well dressed fellow and a fellow you would notice in a crowd, you know, especially with the dark glasses on. Q. You stated that you were the only American working at the Tropicana, all the other employees were Cuban? 112 98 A. That's right. Q. Was that characteristic for most of the other casinos? A. No, the other casinos had mostly Americans on them, especially on the dice games, you know. The dice games are pretty hard. to deal and understand and learn. So it was mostly American dealers. Q. When you were hired at the casino, did you have to apply for an employee work card like you're shown us for here in the state of Nevada? A. No, I had to go to Dallas and get, after Castro got there. I had to go to Dallas and get a letter from the sheriff. Q. What type of letter? A. Sir? Q. What type of letter from the sheriff? A. As to my character, you know, I hadn't been in trouble there. Q. That was after Castro took over? A. Yes; and I took it back and gave it to the Foxes. Q. Prior to Castro taking over in 1958 or '59, 1958, did you have, in September of '58 when you first got your job at the Tropicana, did you have to apply for a work card through the Cuban government? A. No, I just went in there and talked to them and 113 99 got the job and went to work. Q. When did you leave Cuba? A. January 1, 1961. Q. You stayed approximately two years, then, after Fidel Castro took over? A. '59, '60, yes, almost two years. Q. From 1958 through 1961, did you ever return to the United States for visits? A. Many times, yes. I used to bring money and deposit it for the Foxes. Q. And where would that be deposited? A. Sir ? Q. Where would that be deposited? A. Well, I deposited money in the Pan American Bank and I deposited money in the. I think it was a Miami bank. I don't know. Q. Were most of your trips to Miami? A. Sir? Q. Were most of your trips from Cuba to Miami? A. To the banks, yes. Q. Did you ever go anywhere else besides Miami when you returned for a visit? A. No. Q. How did you keep in touch with your friends in the United States while you were in Cuba? 114 100 A. I didn't keep in touch with them. Q. Did you write them at all? A. Very few of them. Q. Did you phone them at all? A. No. Q. Did you ever make any phone calls while you were in Cuba back to the United States? A. I don't recall getting any. Maybe Jack Ruby called about Tony Zoppi, maybe, said they were coming or something like that. Otherwise I never got any calls. Q. Did you ever place any calls from Cuba to people in the United States? A. Not that I recall. I don't know who it could have been. Q. You told us about Mr. Meyer Panitz. A. Sir? Q. Mr. Meyer Panitz, P-a-n-i-t-z.. A. Panitz, yeah. Q. Did you ever call Mr. Panitz in Miami? A. It's possible that I did because he's a very close friend of mine. Q. Could that phone call have been right after Jack Ruby visited you? A. Oh, no, I think Panitz was in Cuba when Jack Ruby was there. I believe he was in Cuba. 115 101 Q. He was a close friend of Jack Ruby, is that correct? A. Panitz, yes. Q. What activities did Mr. Panitz engage in? A. Years ago, many years ago. he was a book maker. Q. How many years ago was that? A. Oh, Christ. I'd say 35, 40 years ago. Q. After that, what type of activity did he engage in? A. He could have worked in Cuba, I'm not sure. I think he worked in Cuba. Q. You knew him in Dallas, is that correct? A. Yes; Memphis, too. Q. And did there come a time when he moved to Miami? A. Did what? Q. Did Mr. Panitz move to Miami? A. He was in Dallas, he worked in Dallas. He worked for me at the Top of the Hill, what we call, box watching the crap games, sitting down. Where else did he work? He could have worked around the Top of the Hill. I remember that, and I believe he worked in Cuba. I believe he worked the Capri too in Cuba. Q. What period of time was that? A. I don't have any idea. I'm sure he worked there. Q. Did Jack Ruby see Mr. Panitz while he was in 116 102 Cuba? A. I couldn't say for sure. Q. You assume he would have if Mr. Panitz was there? A. I'm sure if Panitz was there at the time. yeah. Like I say. I don't know what year he was there. Q. Is Mr. Panitz alive today? A. He's dead. Q. And you don't recall calling Mr. Panits from Cuba right after Jack Ruby was there? A. Right after Jack Ruby was there? Q. Right after Jack Ruby visited you. you don't recall calling Panitz in Miami? A. I don't recall calling him. It's possible. Q. Do you know Misty Lane Miner? A. Yes. Q. How do you know Ms. Miner? A. I used to go with her for a few months. She was in Cuba too. Q. When was she in Cuba? A. I don't know. She wasn't there to see me. She just came over there. we had broken up a couple or three years before. I think she was there around a week. I'm not sure. Q. Did she see you when she was in Cuba? A. Yes, I said hello to her. 117 103 Q. Did she give you any message from Jack Ruby? A. No. Q. Did Jack Ruby know her? A. He knew her, sure. Q. How long did Jack Ruby stay in Cuba when he visited you? A. To the best of my recollection. I'd say six days maybe. not over a week, I don't think. Q. Can you remember what activities Mr. Rudy did while he was down there? A. He was right out there where I worked. Every morning when I got up he was there. When I left the place, he went with me to eat and went to bed. Q. Were there any special shows during that period of time that Mr. Ruby wanted to see or things to do? A. The best show down there was at the Capri. Maybe he went there once or twice. Q. Do you remember anything in particular that Mr Ruby did during that week? A. I don't remember a darn thing he did but bug me all week. Q. When was this that Mr. RubY visited you in Cuba? A. I'd have to say it was in '59 Q. Do you remember the month it was? A. It might have been august. I don't recall. I be- 118 104 lieve it was August. I don't know for sure. Q. How do you pinpoint the date of August? A. It just seems like to me it was in August. I told Mr. Fenton that, I believe. Q. Is there anything particular that sticks out in your mind? A. No, it Just seems like it was the middle of the year. I'd have to say it was right around august, I'd say. I'm not sure. There's no way I could tell you for sure. Q. was it during hurricane season? A. No, I don't think so. I think the hurricane season starts in September, I'm not sure. Q Did Mr. Ruby, to your knowledge, ever visit Cuba at any other time? A. Not that I know of. I would say no. Q. He never discussed any other visits with you? A. I would say no because I never did see him. there any more. I know if he had been there. I would have seen him. Q. When he was :in Cuba, did you discuss the Castro situation with Mr. Ruby? A. No. Q. You have no idea how long prior to Castro's taking over he was down there? A. No, I don't, I really don't. I know that Castro 119 105 had taken over when he was there, that he had already taken I think he took over New Year's of 1959. I believe. Q. To clarify the dates of Jack Ruby's visit in Cuba, to the best of your recollection. it was August of 1959 ? A. That's what I'd say. I don't really know. Look at the FBI report. maybe they know. I'm not trying to be smart but I don't know the date. Q. I understand that. We're trying to clarify it for the record. In other words, it was definitely after Castro took over? A. Definitely, yes. It was definitely after Castro took over. That's when they really needed business. That's the reason I called him. They were trying to get Tony to come down there. I couldn't say for sure, but I'd have to say it was around July or August. Q. So due to the Castro takeover, you needed business, and you suggested to the Foxes-- A. (Interrupting) I suggested this thing to them before that, too. They finally made up their minds after business got so bad, they was doing anything to try to get business because not many people came over there. tourists after Castro got there. Q. So you suggested to the Foxes that you knew Jack 120 106 Ruby? A. I knew Tony Zoppi and I knew a man that could get him to bring him over there. Q. And when did you first meet Mr. Zoppi? A. I'd say in the middle '40's, Just to speak to him I didn't know him well. He was a columnist and he'd make night clubs and you'd see him around night clubs and restaurants. Q. why didn't you, call Mr. Zoppi directly to see if he would come over? A. Because I didn't know him that well. Jack Ruby did business with him with the paper. He was with the Dallas Morning News. In fact, he was with Zoppi. like I told you, when President Kennedy got shot, I believe. believe he was there the next day or the same day. I I'm going by the papers, what the papers said. Q. How did you first get in touch with Jack Ruby about inviting Tony Zoppi and himself to come down to Cuba? A. I believe I called him on the phone, I'm not sure. It's possible that I did. I might have written him a letter, I don't know. Q. And what was Mr. Ruby's reaction? A. It was all right. He said he could get him to come. He was supposed to come. Q. What did you do in response to Mr. Ruby's reaction? 121 107 A. I Just told him it would help us out at the Tropicana if he could get Tony down there and give us some writeups in his column. Q. Did you wait until Jack Ruby called you back to get in touch with Tony Zoppi? A. I don't recall. I know Tony agreed to come down there. I even called him or he called me, I don't know which. Q. Did you call Tony directly? A. No. I called Jack. I didn't know Tony well enough to talk to him. Q. After your first phone call with Jack Ruby, what period of time elapsed until either Jack called you or you called Jack back to-- A. (interrupting) It was a pretty good while. Q. It was a long time? A. I would say it was a few months. Q. So, then, you probably called him sometime in the spring of 1959 and then it would be a few months. would be August until he finally came down? A. I d have to say that, yeah, then he came by himself. If Tony would have came with him, then all this wouldn't be going on here. It's an unfortunate thing that he didn't come with him. I think I sent him two tickets I 'm not sure. I'm positive I sent him two tickets. 122 Q. You sent Jack Ruby two tickets? A. Two tickets. one for him and one for Zoppi. Q. And that was after Jack Ruby told you that Zoppi had agreed to come? A. That he would come, yeah. I'd have to say that's correct. Q. And the two tickets were being paid for by the hotel? A. They paid me the money. I bought the tickets. Q. You bought the tickets? A. Yeah. I bought the tickets but they gave me the money. Q. They gave you the money? A. Oh. sure. It wasn't a hotel, it was a night club. The Tropicana wasn't a hotel. Q. And they did not expect to be paid back for these two tickets, did they? A. Oh, no. it was part of their publicity. They spent a lot of money advertising. In fact, they had a sign across the causeway in Miami about a block long for years. Q. And you prepaid the two tickets and sent them to Jack Ruby, is that correct? A. I paid for them with money, is that what you mean, prepaid? Q. Yes. 123 109 A. yes . Q. Did you also tell Mr. Ruby that or make for Mr. Ruby any accommodations for where they would stay when they got down there? A. I told them that they would be taken care of in care of any hotel they wanted to. the bill would be taken because that was the agreement I had with the Foxes- Q. And that was not prepaid in advance. was it? A. No. Q. where did Jack Ruby stay when he got down there? A. They didn't pay his way when he got there because he didn't bring Zoppi. He stayed at a little hotel there. I was living at the Foxa at the time, F-o-x-a, it was an apartment building. He stayed in a little hotel. I could look out my window and see it down on the corner. Q. Was his ticket still paid for even though Tony Zoppi didn't come? A. We went ahead and paid that they did rather. I didn't get it back. Q. The letter you've given us today from Tony Zoppi, the portion of the letter you gave to us today, do you still have the top of that letter? A. The whole letter? Q. Yes. A. No, it was a personal letter to this fellow her. 124 110 That's the only part I had of it. Q. The letter was addressed to? A. The letter that Tony sent was sent to Brescia. Q. Right. And did he give you the entire letter or just the bottom portion? A. He gave me the entire letter but I tore off the bottom part because that was the only part that concerned me. It was all personal. Q. And you destroyed the top portion? You no longer have the top portion of the letter? A. There wasn't anything in there that anyone would be interested in. I Just read the bottom part where he concluded his letter and tore it out. Q. Do you still have the top part? A. No. Q. Was there any reason you didn't give that letter to Mr. Cline and Mr. Fenton when they came to talk to you? A. I told them I had it. Q. Did they ask to see it? A. They told me if I got subpoenaed to bring it with pretty sure they did. I'm positive I brought it up to them. You see, when they interviewed me, I was at a friend of mine's house, staying overnight, because they were gone out of town and they were scared someone would break in their house and they came over there. In facts I went down 125 111 and met them. Q. Do you know why Tony Zoppi couldn't go to Cuba? A. Sir? Q. Do you know why Tony Zoppi couldn't go to Cuba on that trip? A. Why he didn't come? Q. Yes. A. No, I don't. I have no idea. I guess he was busy or somethings couldn't make it. Q. Why did Jack Ruby come? A. He just wanted to use the free ticket, I guess. Q. Before Jack Ruby came. did he tell you that Tony Zoppi would not be coming? A. No, he didn't tell me. I would have told him to stay there then I wouldn't have had all this. Q. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI concern- ing Jack Ruby's visits to Cuba? A. I recall them interviewing me about Jack Ruby, yes. Q. Did you tell the FBI about Tony Zoppi? A. I don't think I did, to tell you the truth. I think about it until I got the darn letter. Then it all came back to me why he was coming down there. Q. And this letter is the letter you received in 1976? A. I received a letter in 1976 from my brother, yes. Q. So from 1963 to 1976. you. had Just forgotten? 126 112 A. I had Just forgot about it. to tell you the truth. I was all shook up about the darn thing happening and it just slipped my mind. Q. Wasn't really the only reason for Ruby to come visit was to get Tony Zoppi? A. That's right. Q. Isn't that the primary reason for him to visit? A. That's the only reason that he came down there was he was supposed to bring Tony Zoppi and he didn't bring him. Q. It wasn't to give Jack Ruby a vacation. was it? A. No. I don't think so. It might have been what I told the FBI because like I say, I was so shook up when I talked to them that first time and I didn't know what to tell them. Q. In an FBI interview dated June 9, 1964, and the interview being conducted on June 8, 1964, by special agents Stevens and McFaul, let me read you part of what you said about Jack Ruby's visit to Cuba. You stated. "In 1959, date unrecalled, he wrote to Ruby and asked him if he would like to come to Havana for a week. He stated there was no ulterior motive and that he had been a close friend of Ruby's and extended this invitation as one would to a brother. He realized Ruby was working hard with his Dallas night club and felt that Ruby needed a rest. Because the cost' of plane 127 113 tickets in Havana could be paid for by pasos for approximately one fifth of the cost of the ticket in the United States, he purchased a round-trip ticket for Ruby at his own expense and mailed it to Ruby in Dallas after which Ruby boarded a plane and flew to Havana for a visit." Later in the report, if I may just read another paragraph, it states. "With further regard to the airline ticket purchased by McWillie, he stated that as best he can recall, the peso evaluation of this ticket was about $75 and that he had personally absorbed the cost. He could not be certain whether Ruby repaid him for this ticket after Ruby reached Havana, again explaining that he purchased the ticket at Havana and mailed it to Ruby at one fifth of what it would cost Ruby to buy a comparable ticket in Dallas. He does not recall standing any other expenses for Ruby in connection with the trip and was unable to state whether Ruby had repaid him for the cost of the ticket or not." Now, is that an accurate account of what you told the FBI? A. I may have told them that but Zoppi was supposed to come with Ruby. It Just slipped my mind about Zoppi, that's all. I 'm sure I sent him two tickets. I paid for them out of my pocket but I got the money from the Foxes. Q. The agents questioned you in fairly explicit de- tail, is that not correct? 128 114 A. Sir ? Q. The agents questioned you in fairly explicit tail, is that not correct? A. They questioned me pretty good, yes. Q. I mean they specifically asked you whether or not there was an ulterior motive for your sending a ticket to Jack Ruby. Don't you think you would have remembered about Tony Zoppi at that time? A. I didn't remember until I got that letter. to tell you the truth. I did not remember about it until I got the letter and then it all hit me at one time and I said to self, well, I should have told the FBI that. Q. There's also an FBI report dated November 27, 1963. the interview being conducted November 25, 1963, by special agents Stavens and Salisbury concerning Ruby's trip to Cuba. Again it says. "McWillie said he had gone to Cuba to work at the Tropicana at Havana, Cuba, and while there-- A. (Interrupting) I didn't understand you. Q. I'm sorry. the report states. "McWillie said he had gone to Cuba to work at the Tropicana at Havana, Cuba. and while there sometime in 1959, Ruby had been in Cuba for about a one week's vacation and he had seen Ruby there at that time. He said he knew of no interests Ruby might have had in Cuba." A. He didn't have any interests in Cuba and he did 129 115 take a vacation when he came by himself. He darn sure did. Q. And again you did not recall that Tony Zoppi was the primary reason that Jack Ruby-- A. (Interrupting) No, I didn't. To tell you the truth, I didn't until I got that letter and it hit me and I said, my, God. I should have told the FBI that. Q. Even when questioned about the cost of Ruy's trip? A. I didn't recall it. Like I say, it was such a terrible thing that happened that I was just shook all up. They came out there the same day, I think. Q. You ere sure, however, that Jack Ruby's trip to Cuba was after Castro took over? Are you sure of that now? A. I'm positive of it, yeah. Q. And the reason you can date that is-- A. (Interrupting) I'd have to say, yes, it was after he took over. Q. And what's the reason you can date that? A. I wasn't there--do you have it there when I went to Cuba? You said September? Q. September of 1958. A. It would have to be after Castro was in. Q. And the reason you're dating that again is because of the decline in business due to Castro's takeover, is that correct? 130 116 A. That's correct. Business declined when Castro got there. Q. How was business generally when you first moved to the Casino in 1958? A. How was what? Q. How was business at the Tropicana? A. It wasn't any good. It was going down then. There was talk in all the papers about Castro going to arrive there and everything It had declined. Q. It had declined at that time? A. Real bad. Q. Could the Foxes have asked you at that time or you had suggested to the Foxes at that time to get in touch with Tony Zoppi? A. I had suggested to the Foxes that we might get some business out of Dallas if we would get him to write articles in his column about it. Q. When was the first time you made that suggestion to the Foxes? A. I made that, I believe, when I first went there. I believe I did. I'm not positive. Then when it got so bad after Castro got there, I went to them again and they decided to go ahead with it. Q. When you first made the suggestion to the Foxes, when you first got there in September of '58, did you tell Jack 131 117 Ruby that, in fact, you had made that suggestion? A. Did I tell-- Q. (Interrupting) Did you tell Ruby even though nothing had been definite with the Foxes? A. No. Q. You never told Jack Ruby you had made the suggestion until the Foxes O.K.'d the deal? A. In '58? Q. Right, in '58. A. I don't think so. I think it was after Castro got there. Q. You never told him you had made the suggestion until the Foxes O.K.'d the deal? A. No, I didn't call him until after they O.K.'d the deal. Q. You stated that you asked or you might have asked Jack Ruby to send you a gun in Cuba just because you could get yourself killed down there, a lot of people had guns. A. Well, it was awful bad down there. It was scary, little kids carrying machine guns. Q. Was there much gun running into Cuba? A. Sir? Q. Was there much gun running into Cuba? A. I don't know about any gun running. No way I'd know about that. 132 118 Q. Where did all the guns come from? A. Castro brought then with him. Q. Do you know how Castro got his guns? A. No, I don't have any idea. Q. Do you know Mr. Robert McKeown? A. No sir, I sure don't. You asked me that before. Q. Do you know Dominick Bartone? A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever heard the name before? A. Dominick Bartone? Q. Bartone. A. Never heard of him. Q. Mr. Edward Browder? A. Edward who? Q. Browder. A. No, sir. Q. You never heard that name before? A. No. McKeown's name I've read in articles about Ruby? Q. But you never met him personally? A. No. Q. You just read that. A. I wouldn't know him if I'd see him. Q. Do you know Mr. Sam Benton? A. Who? 133 119 Q. Benton, B-e-n-t-o-n. A. No, sir. Q. We're turning for a moment to Ruby's trip without Tony Zoppi to Cuba. A. O.K. Q. Mr. Zoppi has written an article on the subject. Are you aware of that fact? No, I'm not. Q. In Mr. Zoppi's article. he states that the trip was supposed to be in December of 1958, which is prior to Castro's taking over. A. Maybe I did call him before '59. But I did call him in '59 again. If I did make a call in '58, then I did make a call in '59. Q. Could you explain that? I'm not sure I understand. A. It's possible that I did call in '58. MR. WOLF: Off the record. (Thereupon, a short discussion was had off the record.) MR. WOLF: On the record. BY MR. WOLF: Q. As we were stating, Mr. Zoppi has told us and written that to the best of his recollection, it was in December of 1958 when he was supposed to come down to make this review and, in fact, one of the reasons he did not go 134 120 was he had another show in Las Vegas to review. That was the reason he did not go down to Cuba' with Jack Ruby. He states that he intended going down after the review but did not go down to Cuba because Castro took over. And that's how he places the dates of December 1958 because he's certain that since Castro took over January 1, 1959. he then did not go down. A. Well it's possible that I could have called in '58. But I know I called in '59, too. But it's possible but I'm not sure. Q. That's what we were asking before. The Foxes did approve Jack Ruby and Tony Zoppi coming down together until 1959? A. The first time, it might have been '58, the latter part of '58. I 'm not positive on this. It's been so long, it's been 20 years ago, you know. But I did know that I called Jack Ruby in '59 and he told me he would bring Tony Zoppi. He said, "Don't worry, I'll bring him down there." Now it's possible that I did call him in '58, too, I don't recall it. Q. And Jack Ruby, when he was in Cuba was that before or after Castro took over? A. Jack Ruby's in Cuba after Castro took over. Q. And, to the best of your recollection, that was August of 1959? 135 121 A. I'd have to may August. I'm not sure, though. Q. I'm saying though to the best of your recollection, it was August? A. I don't know. Q. Subsequent to your returning to the United States, you were involved in an incident at Miami Airport, is that correct? A. That's right. Q. And is it fair to characterize you as anti-Castro? A. I was in an outfit called Fair Play for Cuba. I'm not very proud of it but I was just mad. Q. It would be fair to characterize your political philosophy as anti-Castro? A. I wasn't trying to do anything. This fellow was talking about the United States and President Eisenhower and different people and what a bum country it was in America, it's lucky I didn't jump on him there because if I had I would have been in jail but I waited until I got to the States. I called the FBI and I explained it to them. He was a school teacher up in Chicago. Q. Subsequent to your return to the United States, were you ever approached by any individuals regarding assassinating Fidel Castro? A. Oh, God, no, of course not. 136 122 Q. Did you ever discuss the political situation in Cuba with any individuals? A. Nobody. It was a very dangerous thing to even talk to Cubans about Castro or anybody else. Q. Even in the United States? A. In the United States? Q. I'm saying subsequent to your return from Cuba, not while you were in Cuba but subsequent. A. While I was in Cuba? Q. After you left Cuba and came back to the United States. A. I would rib Cubans about Castro being a Communist and things like that. Q. Was that here in the United States? A. In the United States. Which Cubans? A. I don't know, just anyone I'd see, viva Fidel, rib them. That's what they all said when Castro got there. Q. Jerry Patrick Hemming, H-e-m-m-i-n-g. A. No. Q. You stated you knew Mr. Mike McLaney? A. Very well. Q. How did you know Mr. McLaney? 137 123 A. I met Mr. McLaney at the, I met him years ago in Miami. He had a restaurant in Miami. I met him one night in there. I was at the races. Q. Was that before or after-- A. (Interrupting) This was in the early '40's, '46 or '47. He had a restaurant called Liaglan. I don't know how to spell it, a French restaurant. I was introduced to him. Q. Did you meet Mr. McLancy while you were in Cuba? A. I met him in Miami first. The next time I saw Mr. McLancy, just introduction, my name, his name, he probably forgot about it. The next time. when I went to Cuba. he had the National Hotel. I used to go over and visit with him. you know like you visit with people. Q. Did you have dinner with him occasionally? A. I don't think I ever did have dinner with him, no. I'd just go over and said hello. And then I worked for McLaney in Haiti, too, Porta prince, Haiti. I stayed down there nine months. Q. What period of time did you work in Haiti? A. 1975, I believe. I didn't stay but nine months. I got sick down there. Q. Did you know Mr. McLaney's brother? A. Oh, yeah, a very good friend of mine, Bill. Q. How did you know Bill? 138 124 A. I met Bill in Cuba. Q. Is that the first time you had met him? A. The first time Bill, yeah. Q. After you left Cuba, did you continue to maintain friendship with him? A. Oh, sure, We're still friends. Q. How often would you see him after you left Cuba speak to him? A. After I left Cuba? Q. Yes. A. I never saw him again until I went to Haiti. No, I worked for him at the Carousel here. They owned the Carousel, McLaneys. Q. Was that in Nevada, Cal-Neva? A. No, didn't I tell you about the Carousel Club? gave you a resume of every place I worked. MR. PURDY: You're talking about the Carousel in Las Vegas? THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. WOLF: Q. And they own that club? A. They own that. Q. What did Bill McLaney do in Cuba? A. With his brother, I don't know what he did. Helped with the casino, I guess. 139 125 Q. Did they own it jointly? A. I have no idea how they owned it. Q. Did you ever discuss political attitudes toward Castro with the McLaneys? A. Never, had no reason to. Q. After your return to the United States, did the McLaneys ever discuss their attitude toward Castro? A. Never, never mentioned Castro to me. Q. Were you aware that the McLaneys were involved in anti-Castro activities after their return to the United States? A. No. Q. You never heard that before today? A. Never heard it. I think I read it in a book, too. Q. But you were not aware of that? A. No. Q. When was the first time that you became aware of John Roselli's or Sam Giancana's efforts to assassinate Fidel Castro? A. About what? Q. About John Roselli's or Sam Giancana's efforts to assassinate Fidel Castro. A. Read it in the papers. Q. You had never heard of it before that? A. Never. 140 126 Q. Do you know Mr. Frank Sturgis? A. No. Q. Have you ever heard of Mr. Sturgis? A. I've read books about him. Q. Mr. Frank Fiorini? A. No, I read in the books, though, that he was in Castro's army. That's Sturgis, too, isn't Q. Do you know Mr. Richard Danner? A. Mr. Danner used to be an FBI man in Dallas. Q. How did you first meet Mr. Danner? A. I don't recall. It seems like he was looking for some--I don't recall how I met him but I did meet him one time. Q. Just one time? A. That's all. I 've seen him here. Q. That was in Dallas? A. One time here is all I've seen him. Q. Did you ever see Mr. Danner in Cuba? A. You only saw Mr. Danner one time in Las Vegas? A. I went in thereto look for a job. Q. Do you remember where when you say you went in there? A. The Frontier. He was working for Suma, you know, the general manager of the Sands and at that time they 141 127 didn't need anyone. Q. You never discussed with Mr. Danner Mr. Roselli or Mr. Giancana, did you? A. Of course not. I didn't know those people. Q. Do you know Mr. E. Howard Hunt? A. The one that was in Watergate? Q. Yes. A. No. Q. You never met him? A. No, sir. Q. Did anyone ever approach you after your return to the United States about getting involved in a plot to kill Fidel Castro? Q. No, sir. Q. When the Bay of Pigs invasion occurred, do you remember where you were? A. I was at my mother's home in Coral Gables, Florida Q. Had you been living in Florida? A. I went there from Cuba. I stayed there until June 1st and then went to work in the Cal-Neva Lodge. Q. It was fairly common knowledge around Miami at that time that a large invasion was about to occur. Were that fact? A. No. sir, I wasn't. Q. You were not aware of that fact? 142 128 A. I might have heard rumors, but I didn't pay any attention to it because I didn't think it was true. There was a possibility that it was true but I didn't think so. Q. When Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald, where were you at that time? A. Sir? Q. Where were you when Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald? A. I was working at the Thunderbird Hotel. Q. And what was your reaction when you heard the news? A. Where was I when it happened? Q. When it happened. A. I was at home. We've got a TV in the kitchen. My wife was up early and I was working nights and she came running in the bedroom and said. "Come in the kitchen. somebody just shot Oswald." And I jokingly said. "Well, I hope I don't know who did it". Just joking. At first they said a man named Siegal, I think they said. Then a few minutes later they said, "We made a terrible mistake. The man's name is Jack Ruby." Well, I like to fell out. I told my wife, I said, "Margaurita, the FBI will probably come here to see me today or tomorrow." And she said, "Why?" I said, "Well, I knew this man in Dallas." And sure enough in about three hours. the kids and I, I forgot 143 129 what was going on this day, could it have been possible that the funeral of President Kennedy was going on that day? There was some cermony in the rotunda, we were watching it on the TV, the two kinds and myself and my wife. About three hours later there was a knock on the door and my some. he was about six years old, went to the door and said. "Dad. two men want to see you." Well, I didn't want the kids to hear him. I just took them in the kitchen and shut the door and that's where we talked. Q. Do you know how the FBI got to your house so quickly? A. No, I don't know. It was a mystery to me. I don't know how they got there that quick. I'd say it was about three or four hours they were there. Q. Did you call any of your friends or associates right after you had heard that Jack Ruby-- A. (Interrupting) No. Q. Do you know, to your knowledge, did anybody hire Jack Ruby to kill Lee Harvey Oswald? A. Do what, sir? Q. Did anybody hire Jack Ruby to kill Lee Harvey Oswald? A. Sure not. It's like I've told everybody that has been questioning, I 've been questioned by reporters and everything. I think he did it just to--are you all listening 144 130 to me? I think he did it Just to make a big man out of himself. He was that type of a person. BY MR. PURDY: Q. After the assassination and after the shooting of Oswald, did you discuss Jack Ruby with anyone other than your wife and the FBI agents? A. I don't know, I don't think so. I didn't want anybody to know I even knew him. to tell you the truth. Q. Did you discuss Jack Ruby with anyone who already knew that you had known Jack Ruby? A. Who? Q. Did you talk to anyone who knew Jack Ruby and who knew that you knew him after this happened? A. No. Q. After the assassination. A. No, I don't think so. Q. You haven't talked about Jack Ruby with any mutual acquaintances, then? A. No; I might have said something about, what do you think about that nut doing what he did or something like that. I didn't want people to know. It was embarrassing to me when I was working for the FBI to come in and take me off to the side. Like I say, I asked them to see me at home and they did. Q. Did you know Juan Orta? A. Who? 145 131 Q. Juan Orta. O-r-t-a. A. No. Cuban? I don't recall his name. Q. Did you know William E. Fletcher of New York City? A. Yes. I've known him for years. He's from Dallas, an oilman. Q. How did you know him? A. I met him around Dallas. Q. Did he gamble with any of the other oilmen? A. There were two Fletchers. Is he the oilman you're speaking of? His brother was a gambler. Q. What was the gambler's first name? A. I can't think of his first name but there were two brothers and I knew both of them. Q. The Fletcher brothers. A. The Fletcher brothers. In fact, one of them is dead. Q. Did Jack Ruby know either of the Fletchers? A. Jack Ruby, I wouldn't think so. Q. Did you know Raymond B. Cortez? A. No. Q. Did you know Henry Savadra, a former employee of the Capri in Cuba? A. Henry Savaadra, he was a cashier there, I believe. Q. Jack Ruby see him when he came to Cuba? 146 132 A. No, he wouldn't have any reason to see him. Q. Did you know David Elatkin in Cuba? A. Who? Q. E-l-a-t-k-i-n. A. No. Q. Did you know Robert Larkin? A. Robert Larkin, sure I know him. He's a security guard. He worked for Abe Weinstein. He's a bouncer. Q. Did he use to manage the Vegas Club or work with Jack Ruby with the Vegas Club? A. I don't think he did. I don't believe he ever worked for Jack Ruby. I think he worked for Weinstein. He's working as a security guard here in the Fremont Hotel, he was the last I heard of him. Q. Do you think he knew Jack Ruby? A. Did he know Jack Ruby? Yes, he knew him. Q. Did Mr. Larkin ever gamble in Dallas? A. I never saw him gamble anywhere, no. I don't think he made enough money to gamble. Bob Larkin, that's who you're talking about. Q. Earlier you mentioned an Oscar Cheninder. A. Cheninder. Q. Could you spell that name for us? A. I couldn't spell it. C-h-e-m-i-n-d-e-r. He's dead, too, though. 147 133 Q. I believe you previously stated that when Jack Ruby came to Cuba that that was the first time he he'd gone to Cuba, is that correct? A. That's what he said. I've never seen him before. He had never been there when I was there. Q. Did he go to Cuba after that? A. I wouldn't know. I'd have no way of knowing. I never saw him. when I came through Dallas that time. I don't think he did. The FBI even asked me if held been here. I've never seen him out here. Q. Do you have personal knowledge as to whether or not Jack Ruby went to Cuba in September of 1959 for one day? A. No. Q. Do you believe you would have known if he had? A. I would have known it, I believe. I believe he would have called me. Can't they look up the airline tickets and check it out? Q. Did Jack Ruby visit the prison when he was in Cuba? A. I really don't know. It's possible he could have but I don't think, if he did, he went with me and I don't recall it but he could have. I don't know for sure. Q. You said you thought it was possible that someone had gone to the prison with you. 148 134 A. It's possible that it might have been Jack Ruby. Q. Did the person who went to the prison with you speak to anyone that was in the prison? A. Just to this Degeorge and I spoke to Dino and Jake Lansky. Q. Did you say hello to Trafficante there? A. Just said hello. But I talked to Jake because Dino was a friend of mine. I mean not a personal, intimate friend. I used to go down and visit him when he was working. Sometimes he'd drop by and see me. Q. After you left Cuba, how did you get a Job in Nevada? A. I got a Job in Nevada through a friend of mine named Johnny Blaine. He was a book maker years ago. He called me and asked me if I wanted to go up to Cal-Neva Lodge. He said I could go up there and lee Sandy Waterman. He used to manage a casino. I went up there. The 15th of June I went up there. Q. Did Mr. Blaine have anything to do with the Cal-Neva Lodge? A. No. he didn't. He knew Sandy Waterman from old days or something. MR. WOLF: Mr. McWillie. that's the conclusion of our questions. of our questions. If you have anything to add that would help the Committee, we would be most appreciative. 149 135 THE WITNESS: I don't know what I could tell you because, like I said. all the contact I had with Ruby was about the union thing. I don't even remember when it was, in '63. It must have been the early part of '63. I know that whoever Bill Miller did call and to this day he don't talk to me any more because I had Ruby call him. I had no idea Ruby was like he was. MR. WOLF: Do you have anyone else you could suggest we should talk to? THE WITNESS: The only ones I could suggest are those two fellows I named. They were very close with him in Dallas. They were Rifkin and Panitz. MR. WOLF: They're both dead . WITNESS: They died a couple of years ago. They were just friends of his. Nobody ever dreamed in the world this man would do anything like this. He was just a harmless fellow. I don't know what to tell you. I can't tell you anything else. I've told the truth, everything I've told you. But I did leave out the thing about Zoppi with the FBI. I'm sorry I did but I just forgot it. I was shook up that I knew this fellow. MR. WOLF: Mr. McWillie, we very much appreciate your cooperation. This transcript will be typed up and sent to us in Washington. We will then send you a copy of it for you to read. There will be a little statement at the, 150 136 end for you to sign that it's an accurate and true account. If you want to make changes in the transcript. you should get in touch with me. I'll send you a cover letter with the transcript. THE WITNESS: I don't have either one of your cards. MR. WOLF: We'll leave a card with you. If you get in touch with us, we'll send you a statement to sign. If you sign that and return it to us, then we'll send you an official copy of your transcript so you'll have one for your own records. Thank you very much. That will conclude the deposition. Subscribed and sworn to before me this ______________day of____________________ 19_______. My commission will expire_________ day of _____________________________________ _______________________ .....Notary Notary Public 151 137 United States of America, ) ( State of Nevada, ) ss. ( City of Las Vegas. ) I, Joseph L. Ward, U.S. Magistrate, do certify that, pursuant to notice, there came before me, in Room 4-003, Federal Courthouse. 210 Las Vegas Boulevard, in Las Vegas, State of Nevada, Lewis J. McWillie, who was by me duly sworn to testify the whole truth of his knowledge touching the matter herein; that he was examined and his examination at the time reduced to writing in Stenotype by Naomi Bolstad and that such examination has been correctly transcribed and is fully and accurately set forth in the 136 preceding pages; that the deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness, that his said deposition so given was by said witness subscribed and sworn to; that said deposition was taken on the day, between the hours and at the place in that behalf aforesaid, and that said deposition is now herewith returned. IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand at my office in__________________________________ THIS DAY of______1978 _____________________________ 138 United States of America, ) ( State of Nevada, ) as ( City of Las Vegas. ) I, Naomi Bolstad, do certify that I accurately and correctly reported in Stenotypy the complete proceedings had in the taking of the deposition of Lewis J. McWillie, and have accurately and correctly transcribed the same in the preceding 136 pages. ------------------------------ Naomi Bolstad, Court Reporter 152 JFK EXHIBIT F-573 153 JFK EXHIBIT F-573 cont. 154 JFK EXHIBIT F-573 cont. 155 JFK EXHIBIT F-574 156 JFK EXHIBIT F-574 cont. 157 JFK EXHIBIT F-574 cont. 158 JFK EXHIBIT F-574 cont. 159 JFK EXHIBIT F-574 cont. 160 Mr. PURDY. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions at this time. Mr. PREYER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Stokes to question the witness for such times as he may consume. Chairman STOKES. Mr. McWillie, when did you first move to Cuba? Mr. McWILLIE. Sir? Chairman STOKES. When did you first move to Cuba? Mr. McWILLIE. I believe it was September 1968, I believe. Chairman STOKES. How long was it before you obtained employ- ment in Cuba? Mr. McWILLIE. I had employment when I went to Cuba. Chairman STOKES. And where were you employed in Cuba? Mr. McWILLIE. The Tropicana Night Club. Chairman STOKES. In what capacity? Mr. McWILLIE. Casino manager. Chairman STOKES. And who had arranged your employment when you went there? Mr. McWILLIE. A fellow that I had met in Dallas. I don't remem- ber exactly how I met him. He asked me about if I had been in the gambling business and I said yes, and he said, well, maybe I can get you something in Havana. Can you hear me, sir? Chairman STOKES. Yes; I can. Mr. McWILLIE. So, a week later I did hear from him and he had asked me if I would like to manage the Tropicana. He thought he could get me a job there. I went over there and had a conference with the owners there and agreed to come back a week later, and then I went back to Dallas and returned to Havana. Chairman STOKES. Who were the owners that you had the confer- ence with? Mr. McWILLIE. Owners of the Tropicana? Chairman STOKES. Yes, sir. Mr. MCWILLIE. There was a fellow named Martin Fox, Pedro Fox, Oscar Cheninder. That's all, the only ones I know. They are all Cubans. Chairman STOKES. Were there any so-called silent partners? Mr. McWILLIE. Silent partners? Chairman STOKES. Yes, sir. Mr. MCWILLIE. I wouldn't think so. Chairman STOKES. How many other major casinos were in Cuba at that time? Mr. McWILLIE. Let me see, I'd say six, maybe. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us the names of those casinos? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, the Riviera, the Capri, National, the Hilton. There was one down in old Havana. I don't really recall the name of it, but I do know the man's name who ran it, it was Batista. He wasn't any kin to---- Chairman STOKES. To the President? Mr. McWILLIE. To the President. Chairman STOKES. To others you just named for us, can you tell us who the owners were of those? Mr. McWILLIE. I have no idea, sir, who they all are. 161 Chairman STOKES. Just the one you are aware of, besides Tropicana. Mr. McWILLIE. Sir? Chairman STOKES. Besides the Tropicana, you are just aware-- Mr. McWILLIE. That's the only one I was aware of. Chairman STOKES. Are you aware of any individuals who might have had ownership interest in more than one casino? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir, no way I would know that. Chairman STOKES. Did you know whether or not Santos Traffi- cante had an interest in any casino there? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir, I didn't. Chairman STOKES. Did Jack Ruby know the Fox brothers that you just mentioned? Mr. McWILLIE. Did he know what, sir? Chairman STOKES. Did he know the Fox brothers? Mr. McWILLIE. I think I introduced Jack to them when he came out to the place while he was there. Chairman STOKES. But he didn't know them prior to your introducing them? Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. I see. At some time, did you change jobs and move to the Capri Casino? Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes; I did. I managed the Tropicana some time and then the government took it over and I was sent up there by Martin who said you can get a job up there; go up there. Chairman STOKES. Who is Martin? Mr. McWILLIE. He owned the Tropicana, Martin Fox. Chairman STOKES. Then he sent you to the Capri; is that right? Mr. MCWILLIE. Right. Chairman STOKES. When was this? Mr. McWILLIE. Either early 1960's or the late 1950's; I don't know which. I don't recall. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us who owned the Capri? Mr. McWILLIE. No; I didn't know. Chairman STOKES. Do yOU know whether or not Santos Trafficante had an interest in the Capri? Mr. McWILLIE. If he did, I never did see him in there. Chairman STOKES. If I said to you that the FBI files which this committee has gotten hold of in the case indicates that Santos Trafficante had substantial interest in the Capri, would your answer still be the same? Mr. MCWILLIE. That he had a substantial interest in the Capri? Chairman STOKES. Yes, sir. Mr. MCWILLIE. I don't know about that, sir. Chairman STOKES. You know nothing about it? Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir. There would be no way I would know who owned the place. Chairman STOKES. During the time you were in Cuba, can you tell us what was the relationship between the casino operators and the Cuban Government? Mr. McWILLIE. None that I know of sir. Chairman STOKES. Were there contacts between the casino owners and the government officials? 162 Mr. MCWILLIE. Not that I know of, sir. There would be no way I would know that. All I did was manage the casino; they didn't discuss their private business with me. Chairman STOKES. Well, prior to Castro coming into power, are you aware of whether or not casino operators had to make payoffs to individuals in the government in order to remain in business? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir, I don't. Chairman STOKES. In 1959, did individuals who had casino interests take special precautions to avoid confiscation of their assets by the government? Mr. McWILLIE. Not that I know of. Chairman STOKES. Well, isn't it true that you made trips to Miami? Mr. McWILLIE. To take money for Fox- Chairman STOKES. From Cuba to deposit money? Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. Explain that to us, tell us what you were doing. Mr. MCWILLIE. They would ask me to, if I would go to Miami and deposit some money for them, and I would do it. Chairman STOKES. By what you were doing, you were sort of running for them, is that right? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I was a casino manager, and if they wanted me to do that for them, I did it. Chairman STOKES. The effect of what they were doing is they were getting their money out of Cuba into banks or deposit boxes here in the States, is that right? Mr. MCWILLIE. Well, the money I took over there was--I took it to a teller and she put it in their account. Chairman STOKES. In the bank? Mr. MCWILLIE. In the bank; yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. Was this for the Fox brothers? Mr. McWILLIE. This was both the Fox brothers and Cheninder, too. Cheninder was one of the partners. Chairman STOKES. Did you do it for anyone else? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. How about when you moved to the Capri, did you do it for anybody there? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Following the takeover by Castro, did a point come when some of the Americans living there were put in prison or otherwise detained? Mr. McWILLIE. I think so; yes. Chairman STOKES. Can you recall about when this was? Mr. McWILLIE. Why, you say? Chairman STOKES. NO; can you recall when this occurred? Mr. MCWILLIE. When this occurred? Either the latter part of 1959 or the early part of 1960; I'm not sure. Chairman STOKES. Were all Americans who had gambling interests there detained? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Do you know why some were detained and some were not? Mr. McWILLIE. I never did know; no. 163 Chairman STOKES. And do you know where they were detained? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes; they were detained in two prisons, Principal and another one. I don't know the name of that one. That's the one they were detained in. Chairman STOKES. Would that be Trescornia, a place called Trescornia? Mr. MCWILLIE. I think that's the name of it; yes. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us the names of some of the people whom you know were detained? Mr. McWILLIE. I didn't understand you. Chairman STOKES. Are you having difficulty hearing me? Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, sir; it is alright, I can hear you. Chairman STOKES. Can you hear me now? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. Can you give us the names of some of the people who were detained? Mr. MCWILLIE. In this prison? Chairman STOKES. Yes, sir. Mr. McWILLIE. Well, Trafficante was in there, Jake Lansky, Dino Cellini, and a fellow named Guiseppe who worked in the Capri, had worked in there, and I don't recall anyone else. Chairman STOKES. Was anyone from the Tropicana detained in there? Mr. McWILLIE. Was anyone besides Tropicana? Chairman STOKES. No; anyone from the Tropicana? Mr. McWILLIE. From the Tropicana; no. Chairman STOKES. How about the Fox brothers, were they detained? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us why they were not detained? Mr. McWILLIE. I really couldn't tell you, sir. I don't know. I guess because they were Cubans, I don't know. Chairman STOKES. Did you ever have occasion to visit Trescornia? Mr. MCWILLIE. I went out there to see a fellow named Guiseppe. He had been a dealer around the Capri and he was a fanatic gambler, gambled his money away. He had a wife and a little kid. We used to give his wife, take up a collection and give his wife money so they could live. I did go out to see him once or twice. Chairman STOKES. What was his full name? Mr. McWILLIE. I really don't remember it, sir. Guiseppe De some- thing. I don't recall what it was. Guiseppe De George. Chairman STOKES. I am sorry. Mr. MCWILLIE. Guiseppe De George. Chairman STOKES. De George. Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. Do you recall how many times you went out there? I think you just said once or twice--- Mr. McWILLIE. I would say about twice. Chairman STOKES. Do you recall the first time that you went there? Mr. McWILLIE. No, I don't recall the date; no. Chairman STOKES. Can you approximate the date for us? 164 Mr. MCWILLIE. I believe it was some time in 1959. I'm not positive though. Could have been early 1960's; I'm not sure. Chairman STOKES. How about the second time you went back to visit De George? Mr. MCWILLIE. It is possible I could have went back to see Dino the second time, but I'm not sure. Chairman STOKES. To see who? Mr. McWILLIE. Dino Cellini. He had been the manager of the Tropicana before Clark was there. And I became friendly with him and talked to him about casino work and different things. Its possible that I did go see him; I don't know. Chairman STOKES. So that I understand your testimony properly, it is that you went there twice. You think it was late 1959 or early 1960, possibly. The first time you went to see De George. The second time you may have gone to see Cellini; is that correct? Mr. MCWILLIE. It is possible that I went to see both of them. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us why De George was in Trescornia? Mr. McWILLIE. They just picked him up like they did everybody else. I don't know why they picked him up. Chairman STOKES. And what was your reason for going to see him? Mr. MCWILLIE. See De George? Chairman STOKES. Yes. Mr. MCWILLIE. Because he had a wife and a child and we had been giving them money. I had rather, taken up a collection amongst the help to live on. I went out there to let him know they were being taken care of. Chairman STOKES. Was Cellini in there the same time you went to see De George? Mr. MCWILLIE. I think, I'm positive he was. Chairman STOKES. Do you know what he was in for? Mr. MCWILLIE. Why he was in there? Chairman STOKES. Yes, sir. Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. How many people were in the same area where De George and Cellini were? Mr. MCWILLIE. Quite a few people there, Cubans and Americans that I didn't know. Chairman STOKES. Did they have them all housed together; that is, did they have the Americans---- Mr. McWILLIE. Well, it was a kind of a, I would say, a playroom where they all sat around and read and talked, whatever. Chairman STOKES. Well, in the room where you visited them? Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. Can you describe that room for us? Mr. McWILLIE. As I recall, it was just a large room, had chairs in it. It had a yard outside where they could walk around. It wasn't really a prison. They had a wire fence around it. But, I guess it was pretty well guarded. Chairman STOKES. In this room where you visited with De George and Cellini, were other people visiting in the same room with prisoners? 165 Mr. McWILLIE. I don't recall, sir, I really don't know who was visiting. It could have been--- Chairman STOKES. Well, on your first trip, did you see both De George and Cellini? Mr. McWILLIE. It seems to me like I did; yes. I said hello to Cellini; yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. Is it your opinion that both of these men were imprisoned because of their gambling activities or for some other reason? Mr. McWILLIE. I would have to think that they were trying, going to deport them, myself. Chairman STOKES. And do you know why they were being deported. Mr. McWILLIE. Castro was taking over the casinos. I would think that is one of his ways of doing things. Chairman STOKES. And you think it would be in connection with - their gambling activities? Mr. McWILLIE. I would think so; yes. Is it all right if I smoke? Chairman STOKES. Certainly; help yourself. On your first visit there, can you tell us the names of some of the other prisoners you recall seeing there? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I recall seeing Trafficante. I recall seeing Jake Lansky, Dino Cellini, and Guiseppe. Chairman STOKES. And did you have occasion to talk with any of them? Mr. McWILLIE. I did talk to Cellini. I think Jake Lansky might have been there. I didn't talk to anyone--and De George--I didn't talk to Trafficante because I didn't know him that well, just to speak to him. Chairman STOKES. But you did talk, you think, with Jake Lansky on that occasion? Mr. McWILLIE. Just asked how he was, when he was going to get freed, and different things like that. Chairman STOKES. You say you did not talk with Mr. Trafficante? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Did you know Mr. Trafficante? Mr. McWILLIE. Just to see him. Chairman STOKES. And how often would you have seen him? Mr. McWILLIE. Oh, maybe every once in a while. It might be a month or so if I would see him. When I'd see him, I would say hello to him, and he would say hello to me. Chairman STOKES. On your second visit out there, besides the two men that you have named, whom did you see on your second visit? Mr. McWILLIE The same ones were in there. Chairman STOKES. And can you tell us on that occasion how many of them you talked with? Mr. McWILLIE. Just Guiseppe. I could have talked to Dino again just to say hello and pass the time of day. Chairman STOKES. Did ou speak to Lansky? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, he's always with Dino. They were together. Chairman STOKES. Do you recall speaking with Mr. Trafficante on that occasion? Mr. McWILLIE. I didn't know Mr. Trafficante that well. 166 Chairman STOKES. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Trafficante? Mr. MCWILLIE. Just to say hello. Chairman STOKES. Do you recall when that was? Mr. MCWILLIE. Sir. Chairman STOKES. Do you recall when that was? Mr. McWILLIE. No, I don't I'd see him numerous times around Havana. Chairman STOKES. Do you recall whether you said hello to him in the prison on either one of those occasions? Mr. McWILLIE. I probably said hello to him the second time I was there. Chairman STOKES. Did you do anything else, shake hands with him or anything like that? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Probably just said hello. Mr. MCWILLIE. That's all. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, at this time I ask that JFK exhibit F-436, which is a rough sketch of the layout of Trescornia, obtained during a committee trip to Cuba, be entered into the record. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-436 is entered into the record. [The above referred to JFK exhibit F-436 follows:] JFK EXHIBIT F-436 Chairman STOKES. Was someone in that prison by the name of Charles Tourine? Mr. McWILLIE. Who? 167 Chairman STOKES. Charles Tourine? Mr. McWILLIE. No; I don't know. Chairman STOKES. You don't know anybody by that name? How about Charles Del Monico? Mr. McWILLIE. Del Monico? Chairman STOKES. Del Monico? Mr. MCWILLIE. No. Chairman STOKES. Lucian Rivard? Mr. McWILLIE. Not that I know of. Chairman STOKES. Jake Lansky was there; right? Mr. MCWILLIE. Jake Lansky was there; right. Chairman STOKES. How about Henry Savadra? Mr. MCWILLIE. No. Chairman STOKES. And Cellini was there? Mr. McWILLIE. Cellini was there, yes, Eddie Cellini--I mean Dino. Chairman STOKES. Now, on your two visits there, on either one of those visits, did either De George or Cellini or anyone else ask you to do anything for them outside of the prison? Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Who went out to the prison with you? Mr. McWILLIE. Who what, sir? Chairman STOKES. Who went out there with you to the prison? Mr. McWILLIE. Jack Ruby could have been out there one time with me. I don't think he was. I went out there, I think, by myself. Chairman STOKES. Well, you said to us, you just said to us he could have gone out there with me. Mr. McWILLIE. I don't know if he was there at that time or not. If he was, I could have taken him out there with me, yes. I'm not positive about it. Chairman STOKES. Let's talk about Mr. Ruby a little bit. When was Mr. Ruby there? Mr. MCWILLIE. Sir? Chairman STOKES. When did Mr. Ruby come to Cuba? Mr. McWILLIE. I don't know; it was August or September; I don't know. Chairman STOKES. Of what year? Mr. MCWILLIE. 1959. Chairman STOKES. And tell us why he came to Cuba? Mr. MCWILLIE. Well, he came over there--I tried to get Mr. Ruby to bring a columnist from Dallas over there in 1958, and so he didn't bring him, he couldn't bring him or something. I don't know what it was. In 1959, I called him again. I believe I called him or wrote him and asked him if he could possibly bring Tony Zoppi in. He said yeah, I will get him and bring him over here. I explained to him that his hotel bill and plane fare would be taken care of. In fact, I sent him two tickets; I am almost positive it was two tickets. When he came over there, he was by himself. He said, Tony couldn't come. I think he just more or less came over there to take a vacation. Course, I never heard from Tony again. Chairman STOKES. So that we understand it, Jack Ruby came to Cuba at your invitation? Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, he did. 168 Chairman STOKES. And you are the one who sent him the tickets? Mr. MCWILLIE. But he was supposed to bring Tony Zoppi, excolumnist. Chairman STOKES. But instead of bringing Zoppi--- Mr. MCWILLIE. He came by himself; yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. In order to try and get a better idea of when Ruby was there, what is your best recollection as to whether it was August or whether it was September or whether he came in August and left in September? Mr. MCWILLIE. He was just there a week, 6 days, maybe. Chairman STOKES. I am sorry. Mr. MCWILLIE. Sir? Chairman STOKES. I didn't hear you? Mr. McWILLIE. He was there 6 days. I don't recall the exact date when he was there. Chairman STOKES. Can you recall any holidays around that time? Mr. MCWILLIE. No, no, I can't. Chairman STOKES. Now, would it help refresh your recollection if we said to you that there are people who saw Ruby in Havana on September 5, September 6 and September 7? Would that help refresh your recollection. Mr. MCWILLIE. That would be the time he was there then, if people saw him there. Chairman STOKES. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would ask at this point that the following exhibits be entered into the record: JFK F-575, which is a segment of a letter written by Tony Zoppi; F-576, which is a committee interview with Mr. Zoppi; F-577, which is an FBI report of an interview with Jack Ruby; F-578, F-579, and F-580, which are statements of persons who saw Jack Ruby in Havana, Cuba; and finally F-582, which is an FBI report that further sug- gests that Ruby went to Cuba. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibits F-575 through F-580, and F-582 are entered into the record at this point. [The above referred to JFK exhibits F-575. through F-580 and F-582 follow:] JFK EXHIBIT F-575 169 JFK EXHIBIT F-576 170 JFK EXHIBIT F-576 cont. 171 JFK EXHIBIT F-576 cont. 172 JFK EXHIBIT F-576 cont. 173 JFK EXHIBIT F-576 cont. 174 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 175 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 176 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 177 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 178 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 179 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 180 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 181 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 182 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 183 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 184 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 185 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 186 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 187 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 188 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 189 JFK EXHIBIT F-577 cont. 190 JFK EXHIBIT F-578 191 JFK EXHIBIT F-579 192 JFK EXHIBIT F-580 193 JFK EXHIBIT F-580 194 JFK EXHIBIT F-582 Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, I would also ask that JFK Exhibit F-581, which is a postcard written from Jack Ruby to Alice Nichols which is dated September 8, 1959, also be made a part and entered into the record at this point. 195 Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK F-581 is ordered into the record at this point. [The above referred to JFK Exhibit F-581 follows:] JFK EXHIBIT F-581 Chairman STOKES. Now, you have stated that it is your best recollection that he stayed there a week? Mr. McWILLIE. I would say 6 days, not over 6 days. Chairman SToKEs. Could he have stayed longer? Mr. McWILLIE. No, I think I took him to the airport. 196 Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, I ask that JFK Exhibits F-583, and F-584, which are blowups, be exhibited at this time and also be made a part of the record at this point. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK Exhibits F-583 and F-584 are admitted into the record at this point. [The above referred to JFK Exhibits F-583 and F-584 follow:] JFK EXHIBIT F-583 197 JFK EXHIBIT F-584 Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, I ask that Mr. Howard Shapiro of our staff be permitted to approach the easel and explain to the witness what those exhibits are. Mr. PREYER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Shapiro. Mr. SHAPIRO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. These two exhibits are blowups of materials which the committee acquired from the Cuban Government earlier this year. What we have are two cards which indicate two visits. Mr. PREYER. Just a moment, Mr. Shapiro. I don't believe your microphone is working. Mr. SHAPIRO. Is it working now? Mr. PREYER. Fine. Mr. SHAPIRO. As I said, these exhibits are blowups of materials which the committee received from the Cuban Government earlier this year. We have two cards and we have a blowup of the front side and the back side of each card. The front side of the first card, the back side of the first card, the front side of the second card, the back side of the second card. What these cards indicate are two visits to Cuba by Jack Ruby, and further they indicate the dates of those visits. The first card indicates that Jack Ruby entered Cuba on August 8, 1959, the date of entry being written in on the back of the card. The front of the card indicating that Jack Ruby left the United States from New Orleans. The back of the card also indicates that Jack Ruby left cuba on this visit on September 11, 1959, therefore, the card indicating that Jack Ruby was in Cuba from August 8 to September 11, 1959. 198 The second card indicates that Jack Ruby entered Cuba on Sep- tember 12, 1959, and left on the 13th of September 1959, and the front side of the card would indicate that his entry from the United States was from Miami, Fla. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman STOKES. OK. Mr McWillie, do you understand-- Mr. McWILLIE. Yes sir, I understand. Chairman STOKES [continuing]. That gentleman's testimony? Mr. McWiLLIE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. Now, does that information help refresh your recollection, first, as to whether Jack Ruby came in August and left in September, and also whether he remained there over a period of 6 days? Mr. McWILLIE. Sir, he stayed there 6 days, as far as I can remember. One .of them said September what to--to August to September, what date was that? Chairman STOKES. August 8 was his entrance date, a departure date of the 11th--September 11. Mr. McWILLIE. Oh, no, no, he wasn't there that long. Chairman STOKES. He wasn't there that long? Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. During the period of time that he was there, did he leave the country and come back again during that 6-day period? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would ask that JFK exhibit F-588, which is a report confirming that the signa- tures "Jack Ruby" appearing on the two travel cards as well as the post card to Alice Nichols, be entered into the record. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-588, is entered into the record at this point. [The above referred to JFK exhibit F-588 follows:] 199 JFK EXHIBIT F-588 200 JFK EXHIBIT F-588 cont. 201 JFK EXHIBIT F-588 cont. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, in addition to the other exhibits, I would like to have entered into the record an FBI report dated November 29, 1969, concerning the records of the Merchant State Bank in Dallas as they pertain to Jack Ruby. This exhibit should be marked JFK exhibit f-585. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit f-585, is entered into the record at this point. [The above referred to JFK exhibit F-585 follows:] 202 JFK EXHIBIT F-585 203 JFK EXHIBIT F-585 cont. 204 JFK EXHIBIT F-585 cont. 205 Chairman STOKES. That exhibit will reflect information concerning Jack Ruby's use of safety deposit box No. 448. Among other dates listed, that exhibit will indicate that Jack Ruby was admitted to the safety deposit box on August 20, 1959, and September 4, 1959. Mr. Chairman, I would also like to enter into the record at this point the FBI report by Agent Charles Flynn, which is the FBI'S record of the status of Jack Ruby as a potential criminal informant. I would like to have this record entered into evidence as JFK exhibit F-586. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-586 is entered into the record at this point. [The above referred to JFK exhibit F-586 follows:] 206 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 207 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 208 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 209 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 210 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 211 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 212 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 213 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 214 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 215 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 216 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 217 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 218 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 219 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 220 JFK EXHIBIT F-586 cont. 221 Chairman STOKES. I would also have the committee know that this exhibit will point out the fact that the record indicates that Charles Flynn, the FBI agent, had personal contact with Jack Ruby in Dallas, Tex. on August 6 and on August 31 of 1959. In summary, what these records will tend to indicate is that Jack Ruby was in Dallas, Tex. on August 6, August 21, August 31, and September 4, 1959. Therefore, if the Cuban records are correct, Jack Ruby was in Havana, Cuba, on August 8, 1959; he must have left Cuba and returned to Dallas and traveled to Cuba again prior to the September 11 departure date that has been mentioned earlier. Now, Mr. McWillie, if Mr. Ruby made a 1-day trip in and out of the country, would you be able to tell us what that trip was about? Mr. McWILLIE. If he did make a trip I would not know it, sir; and I would think I would know it, and I didn't see Jack Ruby after he left that one time. Chairman STOKES. Now, tell us what the two of you did in Cuba during that 6-day period together? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I worked every night, and as a rule he would hang around the casino. Maybe once or twice he might have gone to see a show or something, but he was around me nearly all the time. Chairman STOKES. But during the day what would the two of you do? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I was working at night and I slept most of the day. If he got up early or not I wouldn't know. He would usually meet me out at the casino after I had gone and opened up. Chairman STOKES. What time did you go to the casino in the evening? Mr. McWILLIE. I think about 8 o'clock. Chairman STOKES. And how late would you work? Mr. McWILLIE. Sometimes 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. Chairman STOKES. And you say he would hang around you out at the casino? Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. And during that period of time, he didn't smoke or drink, did he? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir, he didn't. Chairman STOKES. But he would just stand around; is that it? Mr. McWILLIE. Stand around talking to people and carrying on conversations. Chairman STOKES. Did he know other people there? Mr. McWILLIE. Sir? Chairman STOKES. Did he know other people there? Mr. McWILLIE. No, he didn't know anyone there. Chairman STOKES. You were the only person he knew in Havana? Mr. McWILLIE. He knew Panitz. I think Panitz was there at the time, too, Meyer Panitz from Memphis; he knew him, he was from Dallas, too. Chairman STOKES. Was Panitz there during that period of time? Mr. McWILLIE. Pardon me, I am almost positive that he was. Chairman STOKES. That he was? Mr. McWILLIE. That he was working in Havana. 222 Chairman STOKES. What type of work did Panitz do? Mr. McWILLIE. He was a casino worker. Chairman STOKES. And for which casino? Mr. MCWILLIE. I think he worked at the Capri. Chairman STOKES. Now, did I understand you to say earlier that you took Ruby back to the airport? Mr. McWILLIE. I am sure I did, yes, sir; I would do that, yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. And where was he going when he left? Mr. McWILLIE. He was going back home, he said, to Dallas. Chairman STOKES. And do you know whether or not he did go back home to Dallas? Mr. MCWILLIE. I would have to say he did. There was no way I would know but I would have to say he did go back to Dallas. Chairman STOKES. Now, you have told us that Panitz was in Havana at the same time you and Ruby were there? Mr. McWILLIE. I would have to say so, yes. Chairman STOKES. Is it possible that Panitz was not there and that he was in Miami and that you called him? Mr. McWILLIE. No, I don't think so. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, I ask that an exhibit marked JFK F-587, which is an interview with Meyer Panitz, be entered into and made a part of the record at this point. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-587 is ordered into the record at this point. [The above referred to JFK exhibit F-587 follows:] 223 JFK EXHIBIT F-587 224 Chairman STOKES. Would counsel hand me that exhibit? Mr. McWILLIE. This exhibit is an FBI interview of Meyer Panitz in which Panitz says that he had known McWillie from Dallas, Tex. Panitz says he contacted Ruby at Wolfie's Restaurant at Twentyfirst Street and Collins, Miami Beach, Fla. Panitz believes Ruby was in Miami Beach 2 or 3 days and visited with Ruby on two occasions. Panitz recalls Ruby said he had been in Cuba on a pleasure trip and was returning to Dallas, Tex. Panitz does not recall the hotel room Ruby stayed in while in Miami Beach. Panitz does not recall the month he saw Ruby but is somewhat certain it was in the summer of 1959. Panitz had no knowledge of possible Cuban connections on the part of Ruby but that, he says Panitz received a phone call from McWillie and McWillie was then working in Cuba. McWillie advised Panitz that Jack Ruby had visited him in Cuba and was then in Miami Beach. Having heard what Mr. Panitz told the FBI about your calling him, would you now change your statement that Panitz was then--- Mr. MCWILLIE. I thought he was in Cuba. I didn't know he was in Miami. I thought that Panitz was in Cuba because I know he worked there. Chairman STOKES. What then would have been your reason for calling Panitz and letting him know that Jack Ruby was going to be there? Mr. MCWILLIE. If I called Panitz, I don't recall it. I don't recall a conversation with Panitz in Miami. Chairman STOKES. You don't recall having called Panitz? Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir; I do not. Chairman STOKES. This doesn't refresh your recollection either? Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir. I thought Panitz was in Havana when Ruby was over there, and I still think he was. Chairman STOKES. Did Ruby carry anything to Panitz for you? Mr. MCWILLIE. Did he carry anything to Panitz? Chairman STOKES. To Panitz for you? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Now, you have told us that, to the best of your recollection, you cannot recall Jack Ruby leaving the country and coming back in again? Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir. No, I never saw him again after he left Cuba. Chairman STOKES. Now, I ask again, Mr. Chairman, that we direct the witness' attention to JFK exhibits F-583 and F-584 which have. been referred to earlier. Mr. McWillie, I would direct your attention to the left-hand card of JFK exhibit F-584, which indicates that Jack Ruby left Havana on September 11, 1959. I also direct your attention to the card on the right which is the back side of the card showing at the bottom of the photographic blowup of JFK exhibit F-583, which indicates that Jack Ruby entered Cuba on September 12, 1959, left again on September 13, 1959. The front side of that card shows that on that trip that Jack Ruby had come from Miami, therefore, the two cards taken together show that Jack Ruby left Cuba on September 11, 1959, that he 225 went to Miami, returned to Cuba on September 12, and then going on to New Orleans on September 13. In addition to that, the committee has a letter here from Immigration Service which was sent to this committee, which confirms the fact that Jack Ruby left Cuba on September 11, 1959, went to Miami, returning on September 12 and going on to New Orleans on September 13. Mr. Chairman, I would like this letter from INS entered into the record at this time as JFK exhibit F-589. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-589 is entered into the record at this time. [The above referred to JFK exhibit F-589 follows:] 226 JFK EXHIBIT F-589 227 JFK EXHIBIT F-589 cont. (COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 1442) 228 JFK EXHIBIT F-589 cont. (COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 1443) 229 JFK EXHIBIT F-589 cont. 230 JFK EXHIBIT F-589 cont. 231 JFK EXHIBIT F-589 cont. 232 JFK EXHIBIT F-589 cont. 233 JFK EXHIBIT F-589 cont. 234 Chairman STOKES. Now, Mr. McWillie, let me ask you, in light of this additional documentation with reference to Mr. Ruby's trips, does this in any way refresh your recollection? Mr. MCWILLIE. I think you said, sir, that, didn't you say that he came in on the 5th of August and left on the 11th? Did you say that? Chairman STOKES. On the 8th was the original trip, the document shows. Mr. McWILLIE. From the 5th to the 11th? That was 6 days. That is the only time that I have seen Jack Ruby in Cuba. I thought when he left there he went right straight home to Dallas. I had no idea why he went to New Orleans. Chairman STOKES. You have no knowledge of such trip? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir; none whatever. Mr. SAWYER. Would you yield? Chairman STOKES. Yes. Mr. SAWYER. I think there is confusion. He said arrived on the 8th and left on the 11th. It was the 8th of August and he left on the 11th of September, so it was not 6 days as the witness---- Mr. MCWILLIE. I thought the first time you said it, he got there the 6th of August and left on the 11th of August. You didn't say that? Chairman STOKES. Sir, we will try and clear it up. Mr. Shapiro, would you again approach the easel? Mr. MCWILLIE. Because I know for a fact he wasn't there over 6 days when he visited me. Chairman STOKES. We will have the--- Mr. McWILLIE. I couldn't have stood it that long. Chairman STOKES. We will have the gentleman try to clear it up. [Laughter.] Mr. Shapiro. Mr. SHAPIRO. These cards here indicate a trip on Jack Ruby entering Cuba on August 8, 1959, and leaving on September 11. Therefore, the card indicates that Jack Ruby was there for a period of 1 month and 3 days. Mr. McWILLIE. No way, he wasn't there not over 6 days. I took him to the airport. Chairman STOKES. Mr. McWillie, does that clear it up? Mr. MCWILLIE. That is clear all right but that is not right, because when he came to visit me he stayed 6 days at the most, he stayed 6 days and there is some foulup with that ticket or something, If he had stayed there a month, I would say a month, I wouldn't be ashamed to say it. Jack Ruby was the kind of fellow that 6 days would be long enough to be around him. I am sure he wasn't there a month. [Laughter.] Chairman STOKES. You are pretty sure then? Mr. MCWILLIE. I am not trying to be smart, sir. Chairman STOKES. I understand. Mr. McWILLIE. I am telling it like it is. Chairman STOKES. Did you ever ask Mr. Ruby to get you four guns from Ray Brentley's gun store and send them to you in Cuba? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir; I have been asked that a dozen times and I didn't do that. In the first place, Jack Ruby couldn't have sent 235 any guns to Cuba and I couldn't have gotten them in Cuba. If I had, I hate to think what would have happened to me. Chairman STOKES. You have been asked about this a dozen times, you say. You are aware then that Jack Ruby gave this testimony to the Warren Commission? Mr. McWILLIE. No, I am not aware he gave the testimony. But I have been asked by reporters and magazine writers and different people. Chairman STOKES. Now---- Mr. McWILLIE. I'm trying to think--now, who else asked me that? Chairman STOKES. Here is Jack Ruby's testimony to the Warren Commission, volume 5, page 201, says that you had called Jack Ruby from Cuba, asking him to pick up four Cobra pistols at Ray Brentley's hardware store and send to you. According to Jack Ruby, you were concerned about the new regime coming in, you wanted some protection. Your testimony is that this never happened? Mr. McWILLIE. This never happened, sir, and there is no way I could call Jack Ruby and ask him to send guns over there because every call was monitored in Havana, every call, and I would hate to get caught with a gun in Cuba when I was there. Chairman STOKES. How about Las Vegas? Mr. McWILLIE. He sent me a gun there, yes, and I didn't take it out. Chairman STOKES. Sir? Pardon me. Mr. McWILLIE. I called him. They were having a lot of holdups there. I was working on the late shift. I would get up at 2 o'clock in the morning and get off at 10 and the holdup men had beaten several fellows up because they didn't have enough money for them, and so I called Jack and asked Jack to send me a gun out there, and in the meantime my kids were small and my wife wouldn't let me take the gun out and so it went back. Chairman STOKES. So you never picked up the gun that he sent you? Mr. MCWILLIE. No, I never did. Chairman STOKES. Did he get that gun from Ray Brentley's? Mr. McWILLIE. Sir? Chairman STOKES. Did he get that gun from Ray Brentley's? Mr. McWILLIE. I think he did, yes. Chairman STOKES. Thank you. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. I yield back the balance of my time. Mr. PREYER. Thank you. Are there any further questions from the members of the panel? Mr. FITHIAN. Mr. Chairman. Mr. PREYER. Mr. Fithian. Mr. FITHIAN. If I may have just 1 minute with the chief counsel before proceeding. [A brief recess was taken.] Mr. PREYER. Mr. Fithian is recognized. Mr. FITHIAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. After you left Cuba what was your relationship with Jack Ruby, Mr. McWillie? 236 Mr. McWILLIE. After I left Cuba, I stayed in Miami at my mother's home until about the 1st of June, and I drove from Miami to Las Vegas. I had a job at the Cal-Neva Lodge in Lake Tahoe, Nev. When I got to Dallas, I stayed overnight with Jack Ruby. Got up, oh, I got in there about nine and got up at five in the morning and left. I drove on up to Cal-Neva Lodge and went to work there on the 15th and then I went to, after that was over in September, I went down to Reno and was assistant manager at the Riverside Hotel. During the period I was there, I think I got a couple letters from Jack Ruby telling me about a new place he had and how nice it was and this and that. He sent me some razor blades that just came out. He seemed to be very proud of these blades, and he was going to get a distributorship for them. I may have gotten two letters from him, I don't know. Mr. FITHIAN. So now, what you are saying is after you got back to the United States, you stayed overnight with Jack Ruby, you received a couple letters from him while you were in Reno and that he, upon your request, sent you a gun in Las Vegas, which you did not pick up. Mr. McWILLIE. This was later on, sir, this was later on after I left Reno. I left Reno in--let me see, right before Christmas in 1962, I took my family and we drove to Miami and visited with my mother, and then I came back to Vegas and went to work at the-are you ready, sir? Mr. FITHIAN. Yes. Mr. MCWILLIE. I came back to Vegas and went to work at the Thunderbird Hotel, I believe, in February, the early part of February 1963. Mr. FITHIAN. Did you have any other personal contact with Jack Ruby-- Mr. MCWILLIE. I'm getting to that now, sir. Mr. FITHIAN. OK. Mr. McWILLIE. Then after I was there a while, I got a call from Jack Ruby that he was having trouble with a union named the AGVA. He wanted to know if I knew anybody who knew the president of the union. It just so happened that I knew, a friend of mine named Bill Miller was entertainment director for the Hilton Hotel, I think it was. I called Bill. I managed a casino for him in Reno. In the meantime, he left and went to Vegas, and I called Bill and I said, Bill, I have a friend of mine in Dallas who has some trouble with the AGVA, it is some kind of an entertainment union. I said he wants to know if you know if I know anyone who knows the president, and I am calling you on account of that and if you could help him, I would appreciate it. I didn't hear any more from Bill Miller, but a couple days later, the next day maybe, I got a call from Ruby. He was just thanking me overwhelmingly. Well, he must have called me five or six times during that period thanking me for getting this straightened out for him. It must have been a minor thing; I don't know. Mr. FITHIAN. Let me see if I understand you correctly. He called once to ask if you could help out with the American Guild of variety Actors problem, and you made a call to Bill Culler, did you say? Mr. McWILLIE. Bill Miller. 237 Mr. FITHIAN. Miller. Mr. MCWILLIE. He called me from Dallas. Mr. FITHIAN. And you made one call and then dismissed it from your mind and then for five or six or seven additional calls, Ruby called you to---- Mr. McWILLIE. He called me every day for 4 or 5 days after that thanking me every time. I finally told him, I said, Jack, forget it. I said, I just did you a favor. I'd do it for anybody, and then that was it. Mr. FITHIAN. Did he know in advance that you had this connection that could do him some good? I am curious as to why he called you on a labor matter. Mr. McWILLIE. I don't really know, sir. He just probably thought I could help him with it. I don't know why he thought that, but he called me anyway. Mr. FITHIAN. Did anyone else ever tell you or did you ever learn that Jack Ruby had contacted other people in regard to the AGVA dispute, the labor dispute? Mr. McWILLIE. No. sir. He had contacted other people? If he did, he didn't tell me. Mr. FITHIAN. Did anyone else that Jack contacted contact you and let you know that Jack was having this problem? Mr. McWILLIE. No, no. The only time I ever heard of it was when he called me. Mr. FITHIAN. The only input you had or the only indication you had of the labor problem was a single phone call from Jack Ruby? Mr. McWILLIE. That's right, and I told him that I didn't know who the president was, but I thought I knew a man that would know. Incidentally, this man was a very good friend of mine and he got very upset about it, about me having Ruby call him and what happened. I told him, I said, well, I didn't know he was that kind of a fellow which I didn't. Mr. FITHIAN. What was your reaction when you learned that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I tell you, like I said I was working late at night and I was in my bedroom asleep and my wife had a radio or a TV in the kitchen. She came running in the room waking me up. She said, "My gosh, come in the kitchen, she said, someone just shot Oswald," and jokingly I said, "I hope its no one I know." We went in the kitchen and the announcer said a man named Segal had shot him. I said, "Well, I don't know him," laughing. All of a sudden, they said, "We made a mistake, it was a man named Jack Ruby." I said, "Oh my God, I know this man, my goodness." I told my wife, well, now, the FBI will be out here. Sure enough, in about 3 hours, the FBI came out. Mr. FITHIAN. Besides your wife and the three FBI agents, who were the other people you talked to, after Ruby shot Oswald, about this, about the fact. you knew Ruby and he had shot Oswald? Mr. McWILLIE. Well, several people brought it up that I knew him. I don't know who they were. I said isn't this an awful thing to know someone like this and have to go through all this problem over nothing? That's about the only thing I ever said. It has been an ordeal for 15 years. 238 Mr. FITHIAN. Mr. McWillie, in your deposition to the committee, you indicate that you participated in the Fair Play for Cuba Com- mittee, is that correct? Mr. McWILLIE. Sir? Mr. FITHIAN. You indicated in your deposition to the committee, I believe, that you participated in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, is that correct? Mr. McWILLIE. Before I left here, I was going to get that straightened out. It is on page 221, I think, of paragraph 11 or 12; is that right? Do you have it in front of you? Mr. FITHIAN. I believe you are correct in your citation. Mr. McWILLIE. Sir? Mr. FITHIAN. I believe you are correct in your citation. Mr. McWILLIE. Do you want me to read it to you? Mr. FITHIAN. I will be happy to have you straighten it out, if you can. Mr. McWILLIE. I think it is page 121. It says "Subsequent to your returning to the United States----" Mr. FITHIAN. Could you just get the microphone a little closer? Thank you. Mr. McWILLIE. It says, "Subsequent to your returning to the United States, you were involved in an incident at Miami Airport, is that correct?" Subsequent, that means after I left Cuba; right? Mr. FITHIAN. Right. Mr. McWILLIE. And I answered, "That's right." "Is it fair to characterize you as anti-Castro?" And the answer here is, which is untrue, "I was in an outfit called Fair Play for Cuba. I am not proud of it. But, I was just mad." I think they got that mixed up. The fellow I had the altercation with was with the Fair Play, an organization named the Fair Play for Cuba. Could that be taken out of this record because I didn't say that I was with the Fair Play-- Mr. FITHIAN. I believe I have been informed by the staff that the "he" in the transcript when it got transcribed was attributed to you and actually it was the person with whom you had some differences--we will correct the record. Mr. MCWILLIE. Will this be changed? Mr. PREYER. Your explanation will be made a part of the record and the record will be corrected. Mr. McWILLIE. It will be changed. Thank you, sir. Mr. FITHIAN. I just have one other quick area to explore and then I will be done. Mr. McWillie, do you know Earl Ruby? Mr. McWILLIE. Earl Ruby. I don't know him intimately. I have seen him a couple times. Mr. FITHIAN. When did you meet him? Mr. McWILLIE. I met him about 7 or 8 months ago. He came by the place where I worked and I looked around and there was a little fellow walking in the pit, we call it the pit. He walked up to me and he says, are you McWillie? I said yes, I am. And he said, well, I'm Earl Ruby. Well, I like to fell out when he told me he was Earl Ruby, but I had never seen him before in my life and that was the last person in the world I wanted to see. I said--he said, I am 239 here, I'm making a documentary for one of the networks--NBC or one of them--and how have you been and this and that. I finally told him, I said, Earl, if you don't mind, would you just get out of here and let me alone. I have had enough problems knowing your brother, and I don't want any more problems. Mr. FITHIAN. And is that the only time you met Earl Ruby then? Mr. McWILLIE. That's the only time I ever met him, yes. Mr. FITHIAN. Did Jack ever mention his brother, Earl, to you to 1959? Mr. McWILLIE. Did he ever mention him to me? Mr. FITHIAN. Yes. Mr. McWILLIE. The best I remember it, he had a brother named Sam, I believe. I'm not positive. But, I am sure he had two brothers. He was a little skinny fellow and was ill in some way. He had a sister and he told me that she was ill. He never explained it, I don't know what illness she had or they both had. Mr. FITHIAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no further questions. Mr. PREYER. Are there any further questions from the panel? If not, Mr. McWillie, under the rules of the committee, when the questioning of a witness is completed, the witness has the right to take 5 minutes to explain anything about his testimony that he wishes to explain or to clarify or to just tell the committee anything he wants to. Is there anything further that you would like to say to the committee? If so, you will be recognized at this time. Mr. McWILLIE. Here is a question on page 121. "Subsequent to your return to the United States, were you ever approached by individuals regarding assassinating Castro?" And it took me by surprise and I said, Oh, my God, no, because I never was there. This was the last question that was asked me as I was getting ready to leave the room, if Mr. Purdy will recall, as I was putting my coat on, I got up and was going out to leave, I am sure that he asked me this question and it was so absurd that I--it astounded me because I wouldn't assassinate a flea. Mr. PREYER. Do you wish to make any further comment on your answer to that question? Mr. McWILLIE. What, sir? Mr. PREYER. Do you wish to say anything further about that question at this time? Mr. McWILLIE. Sir, I can't hear you. I'm sorry. Mr. PREYER. Do you wish to add to your answer at this time anything further you want to say about that? Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir. Mr. PREYER. Do you have any other comments that you wish to make, Mr. McWillie, on anything? Mr. McWILLIE. On anything pertaining to this thing? Mr. PREYER. Yes. Mr. McWILLIE. Not that I know of, sir. Mr. PREYER. All right. Thank you. If there are no further questions, Mr. McWillie, you will be excused at this time. Thank you for being with us. [Witness excused.] 240 Mr. PREYER. The Chair will recognize Mr. Blakey. You are excused at this time, Mr. McWillie. Mr. McWILLIE. Congressman, am I free to go back home? Mr. PREYER. You are free to go, Mr. McWillie. Thank you. Mr. MCWILLIE. I'm sorry I could not hear you any better than did. NARRATION BY G. ROBERT BLAKEY, CHIEF COUNSEL AND STAFF DIRECTOR Mr. BLAKEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Obviously there is not much to be learned from Mr. McWillie's testimony, but we do know certain things. First, McWillie was an associate of Jack Ruby. Second, McWillie may have been associated with Santos Trafficante, that is, at least if Trafficante had an entrance in gambling casinos in Havana, though the extent and nature of that relationship is as yet unclear and, third, there may be a possibility, just a possibility of an association or at least one meeting between Jack Ruby and Santos Trafficante himself. So who is Santos Trafficante? What is his background? Who are or were his associates? This was obviously some thing that the committee could not avoid getting into and, of course, it did, as these hearings are designed to illustrate. But before deciding whether or not to hear from Mr. Trafficante himself, it may be useful to hear the testimony of two other men who may have been associated with Santos Trafficante. The first must be summarized for the record, since he was an American intelligence agent assigned to operations in Florida in the early 1960's and he cannot publicly appear, otherwise his identity would be revealed. On September 25, 1978, a sworn statement was given to the committee by a retired official of the CIA. Mr. Chairman, I would ask that it be entered into the record at this point as JFK exhibit F-600. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, it is ordered into the record at this point as JFK exhibit F-600. [JFK exhibit F-600 was received into the record and follows:] 241 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 KENNEDY SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS Name Date 9-25-78 Time Address Place Interview: McDonald: The date is September 25 and I'm present in a room at the Central intelligence Agency at Langley, Virginia- present in the room with me is a former official of the CIA and Committee staff member patricia Orr. The former official of the CIA has just been administered an oath for the information that he is about to relate to the Committee. The following will be a sworn state- ment by this former CIA official. We are not using the course of this sworn statement because of the sensitivity of the subject matter and agency policy that his name not be revealed at this time. Sir, what is your present occupation? "X": I'm a retired government employee. I am doing some part-time real estate work and I'm also a security consultant for a private firm. McDonald: Have you ever been employed by the FBI? Interviewer Signature______________________________ Typed Signature James McDonald Date transcribed 9-26-78 By: br Form #4-A 242 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 2. "X": Yes. McDonald: In what capacity and during what years? "X": I was a Special Agent, employed during the period of 1947 to 1951. McDonald: Have you been employed by the CIA? "X": Yes. McDonald: During what years? "X": 1951 through 1973. McDonald: And you retired from the CIA in 1973? "X": Yes. McDonald: What was the nature of your duties while employed at the CIA and if you would, please explain to the Committee by starting with the position you held and if you would give us your title and the years of service in that position and briefly de- scribe what your duties entailed? "X": Well, that's going to be rather difficult for me to do it unless I have something that I can refer to. McDonald: All right. "X": I was originally employed by the CIA as an in- vestigator. I subsequently held various positions in the Office of Security, starting with the posi- tion as Desk Chief of Operational Support, even- tually I became, that became a branch and I became 243 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 3. the Branch Chief. I served as an Assistant Special Agent in Charge of one of the field of- fices, domestic field offices, and then became Chief of the Operational Support Division at headquarters. In 1962 I was transferred to the Far East, where I became the Chief Regional Security Officer for the entire Far East, and upon returning to headquarters I assumed the title of Deputy Director for Physical, Technical and Overseas Security. I had retired in June of 1973. McDonald: Directing your attention to the years 1960 through '62, you were Chief of the Operational Support Division, Office of Security at that time? "X": Yes. McDonald: Where were you stationed during those years? "X": At headquarters. McDonald: And who was your superior during those years? "X": My superior was "Y". McDonald: And what was his position? "X": He was the Deputy Director for Investigations and Operational Support. McDonald: During that time, did you report to or work for Colonel Sheffield Edwards? "X": Colonel Edwards was the Director of Security and 244 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 4. through--let me put it this way--my ordinary chain of command was through "Y." McDonald: And did he report to Colonel Edwards? "X": Yes. McDonald: Directing your attention to 1960, did there come a time when you in your official capacity at the CIA became involved in an operation to assassinate Premier Fidel Castro? "X": Yes. McDonald: Did this operation involve the cooperation and participation of individuals not connected with the CIA? "X": Yes. McDonald: Who were these individuals? "X": Well, Robert Maheu, who was a private investigator, was approached by the Agency to recruit somebody to handle the assignment. He in turn talked with one John Roselli, who he knew to be a person who had connections with people that probably could handle such an assignment. McDonald: Did you personally know Robert Maheu? "X": Yes, I knew him. McDonald: How did you know him? "X": He was originally recruited in 1954 by the Office of Security to perform certain operational support 245 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 5. activities. McDonald: And what official at the agency brought Maheu and Roselli into the project? "X": Colonel Sheffield Edwards. McDonald: Were there any other CIA personnel at the the time involved in this operation? "X": Richard Bissel. McDonald: And what was his position? "X": At that time, he was Deputy Director of Plans. McDonald: And who else? "X": And there was a Colonel J.C. King, who was Chief of the Western Hemisphere Division, who I under- stood was involved. McDonald: Okay. When Edwards first advised you of this project, how did he put it to you? How did he explain what the Agency was about to get itself into? "X": Well, he suggested that he felt it was in the national interest, at least he was advised by some higher official, that it was in the national interest that Mr. Castro be liquidated. McDonald: And when you say "liquidated," what do you mean? "X":- Well, I assume that was to be put out of the picture. McDonald: Which means killing him, assassinating him? 246 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 6. "X": I, I gathered that. McDonald: Okay. And did Colonel Edwards speak to you re- garding Maheu bringing in individuals with contacts in the gambling world? "X": No, he didn't specify the gambling world. He just knew that Mr. Maheu was actively engaged in some businesses in Las Vegas and assumed that he knew people who might be of the type that could handle this assignment. McDonald: Okay. Who did Maheu bring into this project, what individuals? "X": Only one, at that time. It was a John Roselli. McDonald: Did you know who John Roselli was at that time? "X": Mr. Maheu identified him as a individual who had the ice concessions in Las Vegas and who was a rather knowledgeable person in the groups that were in gambling interests, international I sup- pose. McDonald: Did you personally meet with Roselli? "X": Yes, I met Roselli through Mr. Maheu. McDonald: Where did you meet him the first time? "X": As best I can recall, it was at the Plaza Hotel in New York City in about September of 1960. McDonald: Were any specifics discussed as how the plan was to be carried out? 247 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 7. "X": Yes. McDonald: And what was said? "X": Well, Mr. Maheu indicated to Roselli that he represented an international group of clients who had heavy vested interests in Cuba and they were quite upset about the confiscation of their interests by Castro and they were very much in- terested in doing something that they felt would be of interest to the United States as well as themselves in terms of liquidating Mr. Castro. McDonald: And who was present during this conversation, you're talking about the one in the Plaza Hotel in New York? "X": Maheu, Roselli and myself. McDonald: All right. Did there come a time when other in- dividuals were brought into this project? "X": At this point in time--no. McDonald: When in fact did other individuals become involved in the operation? "X": Well, uh--after Mr. Roselli rather reluctantly agreed to participate in this type of operation, he brought in other individuals who I knew only by pseudonym--Sam Gold and a "Joe," one "Joe." McDonald: When these individuals were identified using those names, had you met them personally? 248 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 8. "X": No. McDonald: When did you first learn their true identities, the identities of "Sam Gold" and "Joe"? "X".' It was, and this I have to just play by ear, because the time frame was a little vague, but it probably was several months after the operation got underway, and I was staying at one hotel in Miami Beach and Mr. Maheu was staying in another hotel. And one Sunday morning he called me and asked if I had read the paper. Now, I think there were two newspapers in Miami at the time--I can't tell you which one it was. But in any event, he said there was something of interest and if I hadn't gotten the paper would I go down and purchase one and come back and call him, which I did. And in the Sunday Supplemental, which as I recall was something like the Parade that we have in the local paper here, there was an article identifying the leaders of the Mafia, and in that article there were pictures of Sam Gold, who was identified as Momo Hiancana and Joe who was identified as Santo Trafficante. And Mr. Maheu claimed that this was the first time that he was aware who we were actually dealing with. 249 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 9. McDonald: And in what year was this? What year are we referring to? "X": Uh, this--it's very difficult for me to say whether it spilled into 1961 or whether it was 1960. But I have a faint recollection and I'm not sure of this that it was, the article was some- thing about Bobby Kennedy's ten most wanted individuals. And now on that point I can't say for sure whether he would have been the At- torney General or, it seems to me before he became the Attorney General he had some dealings with a committee on looking into organized crime. Now, the time I'm very vague on--I don't really know. McDonald: When did this operation begin? In other words, when did you first meet with Roselli? "X": Well, that would have been September of 1960. McDonald: Okay. And how much after that meeting with Roselli in New York did you learn the true identities of Sam Gold and Joe? "X": Well, that's the thing that I can't pin-point. I'm sorry, I just don't know. It could have been two months after the operation or it could have been several months. And I've thought about it but I just can't pin-point it. 250 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 10. McDonald: Is it possible that it could have been as much as six months later? "X": It could have been. I don't know. McDonald: All right. What did you do upon learning that the individuals involved in this operation were in fact organized crime leaders? "X": I contacted Colonel Edwards and told him what we had discovered or at least as far as I was con- cerned it was the first indication I had who we were dealing with, and apprised him of the iden- tities. McDonald: And what did he say to you? What instructions did he give you, if any? "X": Well, he just said, well, this is probably what we could have expected, I suppose. And I don't want to be quoting because I don't recall really what he said but he apparently did not feel that we should alter our approach to the assignment McDonald: Did he give any further instructions? Did he give you any additional instructions upon learning of the individuals' identity who were involved in this operation? "X": No. As I recall, we just proceeded. McDonald:Now, Mr.--Sir, we've been speaking of the effort 251 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 11. to assassinate Premier Castro. Did this project involve two phases? "X": If you call it two phases--there was a uh--after the Bay of Pigs, I think the decision was to forget about the whole thing, and there was a lull. And then it was reactivated later on when they decided to turn Mr. Roselli over to another indi- vidual. McDonald: Were you involved in what we can term Phase II, after the Bay of Pigs? "X": Very generally, as I recall it, and again I'm calling upon my memory here. And I'm not sure-- I remember we--meeting one of the members of the Cuban Junta, an individual by the name of "D:" Now whether that was before the Bay of Pigs or after the Bay of Pigs, I'm at a total loss to tell you. That I think was part of the second phase. McDonald: Directing your attention then to what we will call Phase I, you were most actively involved in that phase. Is that correct? "x": Yes, yes. McDonald: What was your role? "X": Basically I was sort of, if you want to call it 252 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 12. for lack of anything else, a babysitter for Johnny Roselli, because at that time Mr. Maheu was actively engaged in an almost fulltime activity with the Howard Hughes organization, and it was taking more and more of his time. And because of the lull between any activity on the project he was not able to spend any excessive time in Miami. Most of his time had to be spent out on the West Coast or in Vegas. So, I was enlisted by Colonel Edwards to stay with Roselli when he was--while there were lulls in between, while he was in Miami. Just a babysitter so to speak. Mc Donald: Could you also describe your role as that of being a liaison between the agency, the CIA and the individuals involved in the operation? "X": Only with Roselli. McDonald: In your capacity as liaison, would all reports or information given to the CIA come through you? "X": Yes. McDonald: Would you please tell us what method of assassina- tion was decided upon during the phase of the project, Phase I as we've described, when you were actively involved? 253 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 13. "X": Well, I think several things were considered. But it ended up with a thought perhaps, the best method would be the use of some sort of a lethal pill. McDonald: And how was this assassination going to be carried out? "X": Well, the plan was that the courier was to-- well, first of all, I think, in backing up, they were to recruit somebody who would be in a position to administer. the pill to the princi- pal. And initially they were thinking in terms of a cook or somebody who had access to Castro's meals. And I guess the plan was to have him place The pills in his food. McDonald: All right. Did you ever meet Santo Trafficante during the period of this operation? "X": Uh, I am told I did. McDonald: Would you please elaborate? "X": Yes. One time, one afternoon Roselli and I were just wiling away the time. We were staying at a motel in Miami Beach and he suggested we go down- town to--not downtown Miami Beach--to just look around at the sights. And we went down to a shop- ping mall and he suggested that we stop by a haber- 254 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 14. dashery store and for some reason or other he took a dislike to my shirt that I was wearing and he suggested that he'd buy me a real fancy shirt which I wasn't particularly keen on--his choice of it--but to humor him I went along. We went in and he bought a very fancy silk shirt for me. And while we were in there it became obvious that he knew quite a few of the employees and it ended up by our going to the back of the store where, instead of it being a stockroom as I envisioned it would be--it was rather a rather lavish lay-out which looked like a club of some sort. And there were several individuals there and he introduced me to those people. They were just a sea of faces as far as I was concerned. The names were thrown out, first names which I didn't get or meant nothing to me. And then after we left the store, when we were walking away, he said remember the fellow that was sitting at such-and-such a location in the back room, he says that's "Joe," he's our courier. I wasn't really focusing on this individual because they were just a lot of faces as far as I was concerned. But there I guess I did meet Trafficante, because I found out later that he was "Joe," and that's 255 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 15. my extent of my ever meeting "Joe." McDonald: When you met him in the store, was this prior to your reading the article in the Sunday Supple- ment? "X": Yes. McDonald: What was Trafficante's role in the operation? "X": Well, as I understood it, he was a courier that was running back and forth from Miami to Havana and he was representing the casino interests in Cuba. McDonald: And what do you mean by "courier"? "X": Well, he apparently--they, Castro had closed down the casinos and they were--I guess the people that owned them were back here in the States and he was running back and forth trying to determine what their status was and whether they were going to be reopened and whether they were going to be taken over by the Government? "X": But he did have access to several people in the Cuban Government, at least that was the understanding I got. McDonald: And was it to be his role to transmit the poison pill to Cuba? "X": Yes. 256 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview Page 16. McDonald: Sir, in 1967 the Inspector General's Office of the CIA Prepared a report dealing with the CIA/ Mafia plots to assassinate Castro. In this re- port, the Agency states that Trafficante was the Person who contacted and procured "Q", a Cuban official and "K", a Cuban exile leader as two Persons who could serve as potential assassins or accomplices to the assassination plot. Is this consistent with your conception of Trafficante's role? "X": I recall both of these individuals and I met one. I met "K" but it was my understanding that they were Possible--they were people that could probably take care of the assignment, but I don't know whether that was Trafficante, s recom- mendation or it was a recommendation made by Sam. That was not clear to me at all. McDonald: All right. Well, if the Inspector General's Report--and as I say, I'm quoting from it or reading, Paraphras- ing from It--you would have been the person in a position to transmit information to the Agency at that time, such information that is now contained in that report. Is that not correct? 257 JFK EXHIBIT F-600 cont. CIA Interview page 17. "X": I was the only conduit actually from Roselli through Maheu to the Agency. McDonald: Okay, so if the report--the '67 Inspector Gen- eral's Report states that it was Trafficante who was the person who was supposed to contact "Q"and "K" then, would that fact be true? "X": If I understand the way it was running that would be true because Trafficante was the indi- vidual who was in touch with the Cubans in Havana. McDonald: Sir, the '67 Inspector General's Report also states that Trafficante, after receiving the poison pills to be used in the assassination, passed these on the Cuban contacts in an attempt to kill Castro. Is this also consistent with your conception of Trafficante's role in the assassination plots? "X": Yes. McDonald: Thank you very much. Mr. BLAKEY. With your permission, I would like to summarize it. Mr. PREYER. Mr. Blakey is recognized. Mr. BLAKEY. The former official stated that in September 1960, when he was Chief of Operational Support Division, Office of Security, he was approached by his superior, Colonel Sheffield Edwards and was told of an operation to assassinate Cuban Premier Fidel Castro. He was told by Edwards that Robert Maheu, then a private investigator, had been approached by the CIA to assist in the operation. Maheu, in turn, recruited one John Roselli. Subsequently, Roselli brought two other individuals into the operation. These individuals were known to the officials as Sam Gold and Joe. According to this official, he subsequently learned the true identities of these men. Sam Gold was alleged Mafia leader Sam Giancana and Joe was another alleged Mafia chief man, Santos Trafficante. The official stated that he was the CIA liaison with these two men. It was to be Trafficante's role to serve as a courier. Trafficante was to arrange to get poisoned pills into Cuba which were to be put in Castro's food. Trafficante's participation also included the procuring of a Cuban Government official and a Cuban exiled leader as two persons who could serve as the actual assassins. The official stated that Trafficante did, in fact, pass the poison pills on to his Cuban contacts in an effort to carry out the plot. 258 This official also stated that when he learned the true identities of Giancana and Trafficante, he reported this fact to Colonel Edwards who, nevertheless, allowed the project to proceed. Mr. Chairman, the evidence you have just heard, in particular that part that identifies Santos Trafficante, is corroborated in a 1967 report of the Inspector General of the CIA. Part of that report, which the committee has secured for public distribution, indicates A man Maheu [deletion] knew as Sam Gold appeared as Salvatore (Sam) Giancana. a Chicago-based gangster. Joe Pecora, who was never identified either to Maheu or [deletion] in any other way, turned out to be Trafficante, the Cosa Nova chid man in Cuba. As to Santos Trafficante's role, as well as that of the late Giancana, it is described in a section designated as "Comment." It reads: Giancana was flatly opposed to the use of firearms. He said that no one could be recruited to do the job because the chance of survival and escape would be negligible. Giancana stated a preference for a lethal pill that could be put in Castro's food or drink. Trafficante, Joe Pecora, was in touch with a disaffected Cuban official with access to Castro and presumably of a sort that would enable him to surreptitiously poison Castro. Mr. Chairman, the evidence we have just heard indicates that Santos Trafficante apparently participated in plots to assassinate Fidel Castro. He was, in short, willing to kill the head of state. In this connection, it may be well to note one possible reason for Santos Trafficante's participation in these plots. The reason was offered to the committee by the Cuban Government. In its trip to Havana, the Cuban Government made available to the committee a report dealing on Mafia activities in Cuba. Mr. Chairman, I would ask that that report be entered into the record as JFK exhibit F-653 and the translation as JFK exhibit F-654. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, they will be entered into the record at this point. [JFK exhibit F-653 was entered in the record and with a notation follows: [Pages 11-18 of JFK exhibit F-653 were photostatic copies of documents originally generated in response to requests to the Cuban Government from the Warren Commission in 1964. Due to their extremely poor reproductive quality, legible copies could not be reproduced here. Page 19, a copy of Jack Ruby's tourist card, is reproduced elsewhere in these hearings as JFK exhibit F-583 and F-584. [Page 11 is a copy of Oswald s Cuban visa application, and is reproduced elsewhere in these hearings as JFK exhibit F-408. [Page 12 is a copy of a letter from Juan Nilo Otero and can be found in the Warren Commission Report as C.E. 2564. [Page 13 is a copy of a certificate signed by the then Secretary of State, Dean Rusk. [Page 14 is a letter to the Secretary of state from the Warren Commission requesting information regarding Lee Harvey Oswald's trip to Mexico in September and early October 1963. It also requests cooperation by the Cuban Government in furnishing copies of documents relating to Lee Harvey Oswald's visit. [Pages 15-18 are letters from the Swiss Embassy in response to State Department correspondence regarding Oswald.] 259 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 260 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 261 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 262 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 263 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 264 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 265 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 266 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 267 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 268 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 269 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 270 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 271 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 272 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 273 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 274 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 275 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 276 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 277 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 278 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 279 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 280 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 281 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 282 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 283 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 284 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 285 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 286 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 287 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 288 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 289 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 290 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 291 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 292 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 293 JFK EXHIBIT F-653 cont. 294 JFK EXHIBIT F-654 295 JFK EXHIBIT F-654 cont. 296 JFK EXHIBIT F-654 cont. 297 JFK EXHIBIT F-654 cont. 298 JFK EXHIBIT F-654 cont. 299 JFK EXHIBIT F-654 cont. 300 JFK EXHIBIT F-654 cont. 301 Mr. BLAKEY. With your permission, I would like to read part of pages 2 and 3. The Mafia began its activities in Cuba in the 1920s taking advantage of the existing corruption among successive leaders of Cuba. During the 1940's, they extended their mechanisms of control, though covert, to the workers unions in different sections of Cuba which would allow them in future to control everything related to their entrants. These were strengthened with the blow of March 10. Mr. Chairman, the reference to March 10 is a reference to the date that then Senator Batista overthrew the lawful government of Cuba at that time. Continuing the quote: A time when the Mafia began to build its capital through legitimate businesses in structuring luxury hotels, casinos, and tourist attractions to exploit tourism. With reference to the administration and operation of the Mafia in 1958, the same possessed the control of gambling casinos which existed in the luxury hotels and cabarets. The don of the Mafia was Santos Trafficante who was in charge of all gambling while the administrators of these casinos were primarily Cubans or foreigners linked to the Mafia. The gambling halls were under the direction of chiefs assigned by the Mafia who made sure all of it functioned properly at the gaming tables. The Mafia obtained great profits through these gambling casinos. We can cite as an example the casino of the Hotel Riviera which in 1 year obtained a net profit of $1,400,000. The business of the Mafia not only consisted of gambling but also extended to control of the drug traffic, jewelry, foreign currency, matters of prostitution and pornographic movies. Upon the triumph of the revolution in 1959, all gambling halls were closed. We see, Mr. Chairman, that through McWillie, if not others, Trafficante may have had an association, at this point an association only with Jack Ruby. How close or to what effect is as yet undetermined. Now it can be fairly asked, could Santos Trafficante also have been involved in plots against President Kennedy? The committee's next witness is Jose Aleman. Mr. Aleman is the son of a former minister of education in the Cuban Government in the late 1950's. He was actively opposed to the Batista regime. In the early 1960's, he was supporting efforts to overthrow Castro. In a context of mutual business entrants, Mr. Aleman and Mr. Trafficante met at least once, perhaps on several occasions, prior to November 1963. It would be appropriate at this time, Mr. Chairman, to call Mr. Aleman. TESTIMONY OF JOSE ALEMAN Mr. PREYER. Mr. Blakey, do I understand that Mr. Aleman also wishes to invoke rule 6? Mr. BLAKEY. No, Mr. Chairman, he has changed his mind and he will permit both cameras and other recording devices to be operated. Mr. PREYER. At this time the committee calls Mr. Aleman. Mr. Aleman, do you solemnly swear the evidence you are about to give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. ALEMAN. I do. Mr. PREYER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Cornwell for the question- ing. Mr. CORNWELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. ALEMAN. Where were you born? Mr. ALEMAN. In Havana. 302 Mr. CORNWELL. Havana, Cuba? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. PREYER. I don't believe Mr. Aleman's microphone is on, or put it in front of you a little closer to you. Mr. ALEMAN. Thank you. Mr. CORNWELL. What was the occupation of your father in Cuba? Mr. ALEMAN. He was Minister of Education. Mr. CORNWELL. Under President Prio? Mr. ALEMAN. Under President Grau. Mr. CORNWELL. And how long did your family remain in Cuba? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, until 1947, they came to Miami, and then my father died in 1950. Mr. CORNWELL. After that, did you remain in Cuba? Mr. ALEMAN. I was a student at Miami University and then I remained in Cuba for some time. Mr. CORNWELL. Apart from education in Miami, then you continued to reside in Cuba until approximately what year? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, 1960. Mr. CORNWELL. And during that period of time, prior to leaving Cuba, you were active in efforts to overthrow Batista; is that correct? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. What basically was the nature of your role in those attempts? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, we were fighting against a dictatorship, totalitarian government, and we formed part of a few underground activities in Havana. Mr. CORNWELL. Among other things, I understand that you were one of the leaders of the famous attempt on the Presidential Palace in 1957, is that correct? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, yes. Mr. CORNWELL. After leaving Cuba, did you continue to be active in attempts during that period to overthrow Castro? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. And, very briefly, what was the nature of your role in such activities? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, I tried many things, because in Cuba, before I had tried to do something against Communist totalitarian regime of Fidel Castro. Most of the activities, they didn't have any success whatsoever, because I was arrested many times, and there were so many things over there that I had to leave the island, the pressure I had. Mr. CORNWELL. In 1963, where were you living and what was your occupation? Mr. ALEMAN. I was living in the Scott Bryan. I had that property of mine. Mr. CORNWELL. You were living--- Mr. ALEMAN. That is a hotel. Scott Bryan Hotel. Mr. CORNWELL. You were living in Miami and you owned and managed the Scott Bryan Hotel? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. CORNWELL. During approximately that period of time did you have occasion to meet Santos Trafficante? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes, I did. 303 Mr. CORNWELL. Who introduced you to him or how did that introduction come about? Mr. ALEMAN. Mr. George Nobregas came to me after we had some other conversations with some other individuals and there were American businessmen, and those American businessmen had lost a lot of property in Cuba, then he came to me and he said Santos wants to meet you. I some way refused because I had to testify against Santos' people in 1960. Mr. CORNWELL. All right, who was Mr. George Nobregas? Mr. ALEMAN. Mr. Nobregas was in all the activities against the Batista regime and also against Fidel Castro. Mr. CORNWELL. And do you have any knowledge of how it was that he may have known Santos Trafficante prior to that time? Mr. ALEMAN. The possibility that while we were smuggling arms in the 1950's they had all the connections with other Mafia people and they came about to maybe he was connected with them. Mr. CORNWELL. So you have told us that when the suggestion was first made that you should meet with Trafficante, you were reluctant to do do, the reason being that you had previously testified against associates of his in a trial, is that correct? Mr. ALEMAN. Correct. Mr. CORNWELL. Who were those associates? Mr. ALEMAN. Sammy Mannarino and Norman Rothman. Mr. CORNWELL. The trial involved criminal charges and those individuals were convicted; is that correct? Mr. ALEMAN. I believe so. I am not very sure about it. I left the Chicago grand jury in a hurry and I later on had some threats from them and that was it. I don't know, I didn't even ask about a trial. Mr. CORNWELL. All right. In spite of your reluctance, however, did you ultimately go to one or more meetings with Trafficante. Mr. ALEMAN. Yes, I did. I had various meetings with Santos Trafficante. Mr. CORNWELL. And roughly during what period of time did the meetings take place? Mr. ALEMAN. July, June, 1963, around that time. Mr. CORNWELL. Where were the meetings? Mr. ALEMAN. One of them, the meeting was at Junior's Restaurant. Another was at the Scott Bryan, and I don't know how many there were, three. Mr. CORNWELL. The name of the restaurant was Junior's? Mr. ALEMAN. Junior's Restaurant. Mr. CORNWELL. And the other meetings occurred at the Scott Bryan Hotel? Mr. ALEMAN. Correct. Mr. CORNWELL. What was your objective in attending the meet- ings with Trafficante? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, Mr. George Nobregas came to me and said that J.J. Vila, director of public relations in the city of Miami, wanted to see me because he had a message from President Bosch of the Dominican Republic and President Bosch was a man that was very grateful to my father and that he wanted to talk to me about bringing to the Dominican Republic a lot of businessmen and whoever wanted to invest there. 304 Mr. CORNWELL. So you understood that it was a request from people with business interests? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. That you assist in the introduction? Mr. ALEMAN. Excuse me. At the same time, he said that one of the possible individuals that was interested in going was Santos Trafficante, going to the Dominican Republic. Mr. CORNWELL. All right, well, that then explains what you were told about Santos Trafficante's reason for wanting to talk to you, he wanted, I take it, to see if there was a possiblility of you achieving some introduction with President Juan Bosch? Mr. ALEMAN. That is correct. Mr. CORNWELL. What was your reason for attending the meeting? Did you have a different motive or objective? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, other than the objectives of trying to overthrow Castro. He talked to me about, in favor of, the contracts in Dominican Republic, that I had a project, condominium project, and he wanted to facilitate the means for a loan with the Teamsters Union. Mr. CORNWELL. So he suggested he could help you by securing a Teamster's loan for a condominium project you were interested in? Mr. ALEMAN. Correct. Mr. CORNWELL. Now, it has been reported that at one of these meetings, or on one of these occasions on which you met and spoke with Trafficante, you and he engaged in a political discussion or a discussion of the Kennedy administration. Mr. ALEMAN. He did most of the talking. I mean, he was talking about President Kennedy and this is a thing that I want to bring to this committee that--- Mr. CORNWELL. Before you tell us what he said, if you wouldn't mind, tell us where the conversation occurred? Mr. ALEMAN. At the Scott Bryan Hotel. Mr. CORNWELL. And in what type of room? Was it a type of room that a guest would use? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes; a pretty large room. Mr. CORNWELL. On this occasion, how many persons were present? Mr. ALEMAN. There was Mr. Macho Gener, Nobregas, separated from the sofa and a chair, Santos Trafficante was sitting on the chair, and I was sitting on the sofa. Mr. CORNWELL. It would be like a normal hotel room? Mr. ALEMAN. It was a apartment, a large apartment. Mr. CORNWELL. All right, Trafficante was sitting in like a com- fortable leisure chair, that sort of thing? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. CORNWELL. What were the other two men doing? Macho-- Mr. ALEMAN. Macho Gener was leaving the room at various times and Nobregas was separating like he didn't want to participate in the conversation. Mr. CORNWELL. And apart from the part of the conversation that I want to have you explain in detail, why did this particular meeting occur, was it part of the general conversations over the business interests you have already described or was it of some other nature? 305 Mr. ALEMAN. He talked various things. One of the things he said Hoffa could not secure the loan so far because he had a lot of troubles with the brothers Kennedy. Mr. CORNWELL. OK. So, in other words, he was providing information on the same subjects that you had previously told us about, the possibility of a loan through Hoffa and the Teamsters for the condominium project? Mr. ALEMAN. Correct. Mr. CORNWELL. Then, the conversation, was it a relatively brief one or did it cover a long period of time on this occasion? Mr. ALEMAN. It covered about 3 or 4 hours. Mr. CORNWELL. Was it primarily related to business or was it a general discussion just between two people who sit down and talk? Mr. ALEMAN. It was a general conversation. Mr. CORNWELL. And during this period of time tell us specifically what was discussed, what was said by Mr. Trafficante, and what, if anything, you said in reply with respect to Hoffa and the political scene? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, he was very much upset. He said that the way the President was getting into Hoffa, a man of the workers, blue collar, and a man that was a very hard-working individual, and that at the same time he was very much upset, I mean, he thought for a long period of time. Mr. CORNWELL. Very much upset what Kennedy had been doing to Hoffa, and he felt sympathetic toward Hoffa describing him as a man---- Mr. ALEMAN. Very much. Mr. CORNWELL [continuing]. Of the workers? Mr. ALEMAN. Very much. Mr. CORNWELL. Go ahead. What did the conversation lead to next? Mr. ALEMAN. At one point he said, "You see this man, he is not going to be reelected, there is no doubt about it, he has been the man that has been giving everybody a lot of troubles and he is not going to be reelected" and I don't know why he said that to me or anything. Then he said--- Mr. CORNWELL. Did you make a reply to that? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes; I said he has a lot of Democrats backing him and so far it looks very well. I don't see anything that he is not going to be reelected or anything. Mr. CORNWELL. And what, if anything, did he reply? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, he said he is not going to be reelected, you don't understand me, he is going to be hit. Mr. CORNWELL. Prior to that, had you heard the expression "he is going to be hit," the term before? Are you familiar with that expression? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, it is going to be hit with a lot of votes from the Republicans or anything. I didn't have any idea at that moment, that is why I want to bring this to the committee. I don't have no possible idea why he said it. Mr. CORNWELL. Have you ever heard anyone use the expression "he is going to be hit" on any other occasion? 306 Mr. ALEMAN. Not whatsoever. I mean, maybe if you are talking about something, I mean--that is all. I never, I never thought at that moment anything whatsoever. Mr. CORNWELL. The question is, Have you ever heard that ex- pression, "he is going to be hit"? Mr. ALEMAN. In what respect? Mr. CORNWELL. On any other occasion? Mr. ALEMAN. No. Mr. CORNWELL. In any of your activities in the attempts on Batista or Castro, any of dealings with Norman Rothman, or your Sam Mannarino, have you heard this expression? Mr. ALEMAN. That was 1957, 1956, when we were trying to smuggle arms. Mr. CORNWELL. OK, you had heard it during that period? Mr. ALEMAN. No, no. Mr. CORNWELL. The question is had you heard that expression on other occasions? Mr. ALEMAN. No, no. Mr. CORNWELL. Well, then, if you hadn't when Santos Trafficante said he is not going to be reelected, he is going to be hit, did you ask him to elaborate on that phrase? Mr. ALEMAN. To the best of my recollection I thought that he was maybe saying at that time that he could provide a loan and that he was making a story or he was upset about that, and then he just made an alibi about the loan or something like that. That was my thought about it. Mr. CORNWELL. The question was, when he used the expression did you ask him to elaborate, to explain the exact meaning of his phrase, "he is going to be hit"? Mr. ALEMAN. He was talking, and I didn't, I wasn't interrupting for about a long time, and he kept on talking and talking and talking, and that is it. Mr. CORNWELL. So the answer is you didn't ask him to explain? Mr. ALEMAN. I didn't ask him anything. I just took it like somebody saying something, and I took it as you know, like he is talking about a lot of foolishness. Mr. CORNWELL. OK, let me see if I can get what is in your mind, then, as to the specific details of the conversation. You first brought up Mr. Hoffa and the pressure that Kennedy was placing on him. He then suggested that Kennedy would not be reelected. You interjected an opposing view that you thought-- Mr. ALEMAN. No way, whatsoever? Mr. CORNWELL. No? Mr. ALEMAN. No way, whatsoever. Mr. CORNWELL. You said -- Mr. ALEMAN. I respect the President of the United States and in no way whatsoever tried to say anything that I could take that the President was going to have some problem or anything like that, he just said maybe he is going to be, the way he said that word, I interpreted with a lot of votes from the Republican Party or something like that. Mr. CORNWELL. After Mr. Trafficante indicated that he wouldn't be elected, you said something in reply to the effect that you thought he would be, is that accurate? 307 Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. And at which point Mr. Trafficante replied no, he is going to be hit. Now, you told us he went on speaking at that point, is that correct? Mr. ALEMAN. You see, this happened 15 years ago and to the best of my recollection I think that is the word he put. I am not saying positively that, I mean, the wording he put was something he is not going to make it, something like that, that is it, he is not going to be reelected. In a long conversation like that I didn't pay too much attention on it. Mr. CORNWELL. Let me ask, Mr. Chairman, if we might show the witness JFK exhibit F-602? Mr. FITHIAN [now presiding]. Permission granted. [A document was handed to the witness by the clerk.] Mr. CORNWELL. This is a newspaper article which we have marked for identification. Mr. FITHIAN. Does counsel wish that to be entered into the record? Mr. CORNWELL. We would request that it be entered into the record at this time. Mr. FITHIAN. Without objection, it shall be ordered. [The above referred to JFK exhibit F-602 follows:] 308 JFK EXHIBIT F-602 cont. 309 JFK EXHIBIT F-602 cont. 310 JFK EXHIBIT F-602 cont. 311 JFK EXHIBIT F-602 cont. 312 Mr. CORNWELL. It is an article written by Mr. Crile. Mr. ALEMAN. Correct. Mr. CORNWELL. Do you know Mr. Crile? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. I would like to direct your attention to the paragraph on the second page of the article, about halfway or threequarters of the way down the middle column on the page, beginning, "Aleman says that Trafficante spent most of evening philosophizing," and then it goes on. I would ask if you would read that paragraph to yourself, just read it to yourself. Mr. ALEMAN. I can't read it to me because I can't find it very well. Mr. CORNWELL. You can't find that paragraph? Mr. ALEMAN. No, no, I can see it. Mr. CORNWELL. It is the second column from the left, about two- thirds of the way down. Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. Just read it to yourself. Let me ask you--- Mr. ALEMAN. The letters are too small. Will you please read it to me? Mr. CORNWELL. Have you seen that article before? Mr. ALEMAN. I seen the article but the letters are very small. Mr. CORNWELL. Let me ask you, you said you know Mr. Crile. Did he interview you on the same subjects that we have asked you about here today? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. Over what period of time? Mr. ALEMAN. Many days. Many days. Mr. CORNWELL. Prior to publishing the article, did he call you and advise you that he was going to do so, to print the matters that you had provided to him? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes; he said he was going to publish under Wash- ington Post an article. Mr. CORNWELL. Now, would you have had any reason to make a statement to Mr. Crile which was not accurate? Would you have had any motive or reason for making such a statement? Mr. ALEMAN. One of the things that I couldn't answer was the visit of Santos Trafficante. Mr. CORNWELL. Excuse me, what was the answer to that ques- tion, if you wouldn't mind? Mr. ALEMAN. I couldn't answer why Mr. Santos Trafficante came to me to go to Dominican Republic, while at that time we had a conversation with some American businessmen that had properties in Cuba, and those American businessmen said they were going to try and they wanted me to do something against the Government of Castro, and then later on, these people said that they were going to give me a loan on a condominium project that they wanted to give me the loan and at the same time, this loan was going to be financed by, and that is why, the only reason why I went to talk to Trafficante because later on the thing about the Dominican Repub- lic. Mr. CORNWELL. Yes; those type of things, of course, are set forth in Mr. Crile's article, as you recall? 313 Mr. ALEMAN. Yes; we discussed many things on Crile's article. I can tell you one thing. Trying to remember after 15 years all these things that occur is very difficult. There is no doubt about that. Mr. CORNWELL. I understand. But, let me ask you if I might, to go back to the earlier question, would there have been any reason for you to make any statements to Mr. Crile which were not accurate? Would you have had any reason for doing that? Mr. ALEMAN. Well, the context of a newspaper changes. You are talking to a newspaperman and he is asking questions and he will ask questions in such a way that when I saw the article, many things, you know, I was trying to recall. Mr. CORNWELL. OK. Mr. ALEMAN. I was trying to recall a few things, I was trying to recall one time that he said, how many times have you talked to the FBI about these meetings between Santos Trafficante and the Dominican Republic, and I said, well, I told the FBI the following things. Mr. CORNWELL. So you are suggesting that perhaps the material in the article may not be exactly correct, that it might be somewhat taken out of context, or is that the suggestion? Mr. ALEMAN. It is not a matter of taken out of context, sir, it is a matter that when you are trying to recall. He said, we want to sit down and recall everything that happened, and I was trying to recall the many opportunities that I went to the FBI, to inform, about many things that were happening during those meetings. Mr. CORNWELL. What I really want to find out is what the best memory you have on the subject is. OK, so let's start with the article. Is the article an accurate reflection of what you stated to Mr. Crile? Mr. ALEMAN. Some of the things I say are out of context. Mr. CORNWELL. They are out of context? Mr. ALEMAN. In some way, I mean. Mr. CORNWELL. OK. You know Mr. Crile, correct? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. Is it your basic impression that he printed or at least attempted to print the material accurately based on what you said to him? Mr. ALEMAN. He might have, but they didn't come--then when I start thinking, and trying to remember, and trying to remember everything, it wasn't in context. Mr. CORNWELL. OK. Let me then show you what has been marked for identification as JFK exhibit F-601. May we have this exhibit admitted into evidence, Mr. Chairman? Mr. FITHIAN. Without objection, so ordered. [The above-referred to JFK exhibit F-601 follows:] 314 Excerpts of Interview of JOSE ALEMAN, Jr. By HSCA Staff Investigator Gaeton Fonzi March 12, 1977 ...Aleman said in more than one way that Trafficante did specifically tell him that Kennedy is "going to get hit". He also specifically confirmed the quote that Crile printed in the Washington Post and this point: "Aleman says that he argued that Kennedy would get reelected, and Trafficante replied, 'No, Jose, he is going to be hit"'. Aleman said that Trafficante told him this as part of a long conversation that lasted from sometime during the day until late at night in a room at the Scott Bryan Hotel. He was vague as to the actual date of the conversation, but Crile puts it close to his meeting of Trafficante in September, 1962. Aleman says Trafficante was rambling on in a Philosophical way about democracy and socialism and communism. He also said that Trafficante brought up Jimmy Hoffa's name and said that Hoffa would never forgive the Kennedys for what did to him. Aleman said he got the impression that Trafficante was hinting that Hoffa was going to make the hit, not him, and that Kennedy would never make it to the election because of Hoffa. This, says Aleman, was the one aspect of the conversation with Trafficante that Crile did not properly put into perspective in his piece, otherwise the piece was very accurate. Since the conversation with Trafficante took place over such a long part of the day, Aleman says there were many people in and out of the room during the course of However, he believes that at the time that Trafficante was talking of Kennedy, there were two others present besides himself and Trafficante: George Nobregas and "Macho" Gener, the latter being Trafficante's top man in his and the Mafla's relationship with Cubans... JFK EXHIBIT F-601 Mr. CORNWELL. Mr. Aleman, that is an excerpt from a report of an investigator of ours, Gaeton Fonzi, dated March 12, 1977, and I would like to specifically direct your attention to the first para- graph which reads as follows: "Aleman said in more than one way that Trafficante did specifically tell him that Kennedy is "going to get hit." He also specifically confirmed the quote that Crile printed in the Washington Post on this point: "Aleman says that he argued that Kennedy would get reelected and Trafficante replied, 'no, Jose he is going to be hit'." Let me ask you, did you meet with Mr. Fonzi on that occasion? Mr. ALEMAN. I met with Mr. Fonzi on that occasion. Now, after the first article, when I talked all those things about trying to 315 remember, I had the doubt that Mr. Trafficante was in some way trying to get Cubela from Cuba, he was trying to get other people, and during that time, when that happened, Mr. Cubela, after I talked to him many times to do something against the regime of Castro, he didn't do anything, and in some way he was trying to bring this man, and that is why I brought to the point that these things were happening and it was very important to pay attention of the possibility of Castro being mixed with Santos Trafficante because in Miami everybody talks that the Bolita is being paid, used to be repaid to the G-2 agents by Santos Trafficante and G-2 agents in Cuba used to be, I mean in Miami used to be paid that way, and I wanted for them to pay attention to this. That is the main reason I brought all these. Mr. CORNWELL. What we would like to attempt to do first is to determine, to the best of your memory, what the words were that Trafficante used in this conversation, and the interview report which we have just placed into evidence indicates that you did specifically confirmed that, to the best of your memory, those were the exact words, when you were interviewed in March 1977. Is that report accurate? Mr. ALEMAN. The report, I, again, will tell you, that I was trying to recollect things from a long period of time and I was talking about Castro maybe being involved with Cubela, with Papina Ronjo, in a lot of things. Mr. CORNWELL. I understand that part. Specifically with respect to the first paragraph where it states that you specifically confirmed that with respect to Kennedy, Trafficante stated, "No, Jose, he is going to be hit," is that an accurate--- Mr. ALEMAN. Because if this man was in Cuba, arrested, Santos Trafficante, then Garcia Banjo, Cubela and all these people tried to get him out of jail and he had connections with the Castro government, there is no doubt that you have to pay attention to all this. That's the main reason why I am bringing this to the committee because no doubt that at that very moment, Santos Trafficante, I believe, has a lot of connections with the regime of Fidel Castro, There's no doubt about that in my mind. Mr. FITHIAN. If the Chair could interrupt---- Mr. ALEMAN. Even after some time I heard the opinion of a Communist talking that he didn't have nothing whatsoever. Mr. FITHIAN. Will the witness suspend for just 1 minute? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. FITHIAN. The Chair is informed, Mr. Aleman, that there is an important vote on the floor and all members wanted to hear what you had to say. So I am going to ask for a 10-minute recess. Prior to that, however, the security service, the marshals, have asked that all members of the audience and the press remain seated and in place at this time until the witness is escorted from the room. We would ask then that the witness and the marshals do that at this time and then we will declare the recess. [Mr. Aleman left the room with the marshals.] Mr. FITHIAN. The committee will recess for 10 minutes. [A brief recess was taken.] Mr. PREYER [presiding]. The committee will come to order. 316 Let me remind everyone in the hearing room that the U.S. marshal service has asked that all of you remain seated when the witness is brought into the hearing room and when he leaves the hearing room. We will ask that the witness be brought in at this time, and we will ask everyone in the hearing room to remain seated. I understand that it may take about a minute for the witness to be brought in. [Mr. Aleman was escorted into the hearing room.] Mr. PREYER. Would you have your seat, Mr. Aleman. Mr. Cornwell is recognized. Mr. CORNWELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Aleman. Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. Returning to the subject matter that we were discussing with you before the break. Mr. ALEMAN. I beg your pardon? Mr. CORNWELL. I say, returning to the same subject matter. Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. Do you have any reason to believe that the interview report of Mr. Fonzi is inaccurate? Mr. ALEMAN. When you try to recollect for 15 years something, I am trying to--it is impossible to--the wording is impossible to reconstruct. Mr. CORNWELL. I meant to ask you though, do you have any reason to believe that Mr. Fonzi did not accurately reflect in his report what you said to him? Did he accurately write it down? Mr. ALEMAN. It wasn't Mr. Fonzi, the one that wrote the article; it was Mr. Crile. Mr. CORNWELL. Yes, sir, but the last exhibit was prepared by our investigator Mr. Fonzi. Mr. ALEMAN. OK. Mr. CORNWELL. Did Mr. Fonzi accurately write that--- Mr. ALEMAN. I have to read it again in order to--- Mr. CORNWELL. May we show him the exhibit one more time? This is JFK exhibit F-601. Mr. ALEMAN. This is taken out of the article of the Washington Post. Mr. CORNWELL. Yes, sir, in effect, it asks you if the article accurate, if you did say the things that are reported in the article Mr. ALEMAN. Yes, that's the reason why I asked for protection for coming over here because at the time I was, later on after a things had happened in the United States, very much worried. I bring this to the attention of this committee that I had a puzzle and I couldn't understand what was it. That's the main reason brought this to the committee. Mr. CORNWELL. Simply, for the record, Mr. Chairman, let me that JFK exhibit F-603 be entered into the record. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-603 is admitted into the record at this point. 317 JFK EXHIBIT F-603 MEMORANDUM To: Bob Tanenbaum From: Andy Purdy Date: March 14, 1977 Re: Synopsis of 3/10/77 trip (with Cliff Fenton) to Miami Santos Trafficante Summary: Subpoena personally served on subject by Cliff Fenton in presence of Sgt. Powers (Miami Dept. of Public Safety, Organized Crime Bureau) and myself. After mutual identification S.T. asked us to place the subpoenas on a little bench just outside the front door. He said he was accepting the subpoena. We walked to the street and observed S.T. come out the front door and pick up the materials and return with them to his house. Aleman Summary: Aleman confirms reports that S.T. personally told him that President Kennedy was "...going to be him." Aleman indicates that S.T. made clear to him (implicity) that he was not guessing about the killing; rather he was giving the impression that he knew Kennedy was going to be killed. Aleman did not believe S.T. was personally involved in whatever plan he seemed to know about. Aleman is ready and willing to testify before the Select Committee at any time. He requests that we do not tell S.T. or his associates about his cooperation with our investigation. Santos Trafficante - information in police file 318 JFK EXHIBIT F-603 cont. Aleman- 3/12/77 interview synopsis Gaeton Fonzi took detailed notes of the conversation between Aleman, Cliff Fenton, Gaeton, and myself. This is simply a synopsis of what occurred. Gaeton is preparing a detailed report. Aleman was asked initially about a statement he reportedly heard made by S.T. to the effect that Kennedy was going to be assassinated. Aleman explicitly confirmed the version of the conversation as reported by George Crile in the Washington Post in May of 1976. He said the relevant conversation occurred during one of a number of extended conversations he had with S.T. He is not sure when the reported conversation occurred but he is certain that it did. He said that he believes others were present, including: S.T., himself, Nobregas, and Marco Antony Hirigoyen (the addresses of the latter two he is trying' to obtain for us). His recollection of the conversation was as follows: 319 JFK EXHIBIT F-603 cont. S.T. (trying to make Aleman realize that he was not saying Kennedy would be defeated in the 1964 election, rather that he would not make it to the election): "... you don't understand me. Kennedy's not going to make it to the election. He is going to get hit." Earlier in his first attempt to describe the circumstances leading up to, and the substance of the comment, Aleman said that S.T. talked of the many problem(s )in the country and of Kennedy's role in causing problems generally and in specifically causing problems for certain individuals. S.T. reportedly said that alot of people weren't going to forget the problems Kennedy had caused them including Hoffa. Gaeton, Cliff, and I are in agreement that Aleman made no attempt to even infer that the Hoffa reference was in any way connected to the statement that Kennedy was going to be hit. However, when asked to restate the substance of the conversation and indicate the link if any to Hoffa. Aleman said he was given the distinct impression that Hoffa was to be principally involved in the elimination of Kennedy. Aleman says he never talked to S.T. or Hoffa subsequent to this conversation or subsequent to the assassination on this subject. Aleman says he had a bet with Nobregas: concerning whether or not Kennedy would be assassinated (Nobregas betting "yes") but never collected his winnings or even discussed the bet with Nobregas since then. The relevant conversation came about when Nobregas introduced Aleman to S.T. reportedly because Banco (a distant cousin of Aleman) had helped get someone out of a Cuban jail. S.T. said he wanted to help Aleman get out of his financial difficulties in return. He offered to arrange a loan from the Teamsters. 320 JFK EXHIBIT F-603 cont. S.T. wanted to arrange an introduction with Orlando Bosch. Aleman made this proposed introduction appear unrelated to S.T.'s offer- of help in arranging a Teamsters loan. At first he gave us the impression that he took some action in arranging the introduction which was accomplished by Niles. After persistent questioning Aleman finally said that he did nothing to arrange the introduction. He explained the situation this way: Nobregas was trying to help out Aleman viz a viz S.T. by letting S.T. believe Aleman helped. arrange the introduction. The interesting thing is according to Aleman. (and contradicting the Post account) he never received, a dime from the Teamsters or anyone else. Aleman attempted to explain why Nobregas and S.T. would have contact with him much less offer him assistance, in view of the fact that Aleman had testified for the State in the Rothman trial in Chicago. Aleman said he explicitly told S.T. of the fact of his adverse testimony. He said S.T. laughed out loud and said not to worry about it, that it didn't matter at all. 321 Mr. CORNWELL. And may we show a a copy of it to the witness, please? Mr. Aleman, on the front page of the exhibit there is a para- graph which is titled "Summary" and reads as follows: Aleman confirms reports that Santos Trafficante personally told him that President Kennedy was going to be hit. Aleman indicates that Santos Trafficante made clear to him implicitly that he was not guessing about the killing. Rather, he was giving the impression that he knew Kennedy was going to be killed. Mr. ALEMAN. No way. No way, whatsoever. You can be reassured, that I always in my life fought for democracy. Mr. CORNWELL. I don't think you understood the paragraph Mr. ALEMAN. Yes, but---- Mr. CORNWELL. We understand--- Mr. ALEMAN. Rather than he was giving the impression that he knew Kennedy was going to be killed. Mr. CORNWELL. That's what Santos Trafficante--- Mr. ALEMAN. That he was not guessing about the killing. Mr. CORNWELL. That Trafficante was---- Mr. ALEMAN. Aleman confirms the report that Santos personally told him that President Kennedy was going to be hit. Mr. CORNWELL. Yes, sir In other words that's a recitation of what Trafficante---- Mr. ALEMAN. Aleman indicates that Santos Trafficante made clear to him implicitly that he was not guessing about the killing. Mr. CORNWELL. He, meaning Trafficante, was not guessing, and the second part again is not a reference to you, it is a reference that you stated that he, meaning Trafficante, was giving the impression-- Mr. ALEMAN. Let me tell to this committee the following thing: By no way possible you can think that after all the suffering in Cuba and all the struggle to put a democratic country, and after all the struggle we've been fighting against Castro and after all the problems that I can see that has come to our country, I, if, in any way, I would have thought that the context at that time was that something was going to happen in that respect, I would have immediately advised the proper authorities about it. Mr. CORNWELL. And didn't you do so? Mr. ALEMAN. I talked in some way to members of the FBI about what was going on in the conversation, and I told them that something wrong was in some way, the wording that Hoffa and these--I went to the FBI and I informed something about that type of conversation. Like I previously had been informing the FBI about the meetings with Santos Trafficante. Mr. CORNWELL. And when Trafficante and-- Mr. ALEMAN. Because when all these things were happening, I was informing the FBI about that. Mr. CORNWELL. And I believe you previously told me that, is this accurate, that you did specifically tell the FBI about the comments of Trafficante on this occasion? Mr. ALEMAN. We talked in some way, and whatever is about this thing in the FBI files must be the exact thing because now I am trying to recollect things that happened 15 years ago. You must understand that. Mr. CORNWELL. What we want to do is---- 322 Mr. ALEMAN. So after so many years, trying to recollect what went on, and that I had in some way a worry, I said. what happened here, what transpired here, this is why I was bringing this. Mr. CORNWELL. The comments that were made to you by Trafficante worried you, is that correct? Mr. ALEMAN. After all the years that have passed by after seeing all the things, it worried me. Mr. CORNWELL. In fact, immediately after the assassination, the FBI came to you and asked you again about the previous comments you had overheard, didn't they? Mr. ALEMAN. Whatever transpired during that period of time, I informed the FBI about it. Mr. CORNWELL. They came to you after the assassination and asked you again to tell in more detail the nature of the comments; is that correct? Mr. ALEMAN. They asked something in that concern. Mr. CORNWELL. In the previous reports of your recollections of this event, as in your testimony today, the phrase has occurred that "Kennedy will be hit." Today you offered, for the first time, an explanation that that might have been a reference to the fact he will be hit'- Mr. ALEMAN. No, no, no, no, because when that happened, I had informed the FBI about it. So later on they told me, Jose, he was a loner, you must not be concerned about anything, no problem whatsoever. Mr. CORNWELL. The FBI said, don't worry about these comments, Lee Harvey Oswald was a loner. Mr. ALEMAN. Yes; after the Warren Committee. Mr. CORNWELL. You offered the explanation, though, earlier in your testimony today that the phrase, "he's going to be hit," might have been understood by you to mean hit with a number of votes? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. That explanation appears in no prior report of your statements that we have been able to find, and I would like to, in that vein, direct your attention to yesterday. Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. You arrived at the airport from Miami, is that correct? Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. My staff has reported that when they picked you up, took you to the hotel Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. CORNWELL. You expressed alarm or concern that there was no protection provided for you. Mr. ALEMAN. Surely. I mean this article have been for a long period of time. Undoubtedly, Santos Trafficante have seen it. I think he came to the committee some time. Didn't he come to the committee? I am asking you that question. Mr. CORNWELL. They won't let me answer that question. I'm sorry. But at any rate, go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt. Mr. ALEMAN. In reference to this. So all this time, I have been very much worried, I am very much concerned about my safety. After I brought this Washington Post, and that was about 2 years and 3 months ago, and I have been worried. I sold my business, I 323 been in my home because I mean Santos Trafficante can try to do anything at any moment. The DGI in Cuba tried to do something to me and when I was called to come over here, I was subpenaed to come over here, I was very much worried that I didn't have the protection, and I still believe that the DGI and Santos Trafficante could try to do something to me. There's no doubt about that. The article was there. I wanted a reaction. Let's see what the reaction has been. Mr. CORNWELL. I have no further questions. Thank you. Mr. ALEMAN. The reaction, you can see in the letter of Fidel Castro, in the tapes that he brought to this committee, in the days of suffering of Fidel Castro that he has been a few days very much concerned and talking all the time about that he hasn't done anything whatsoever against the President of the United States. And I don't believe it. There is some connection between Santos Trafficante and the Cuban Government. There's no doubt about that. I came very brave here to this committee to talk that I had been concerned about this and you should pay attention, as patiently I have been with you people, and react. Mr. CORNWELL. Thank you. I have no further questions. Mr. ALEMAN. Thank you. Mr. PREYER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Edgar for such time as he may consume. Mr. EDGAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Aleman, I noticed this morning you are accompanied by marshals. Mr. ALEMAN. Yes. Mr. EDGAR. Would you indicate to the committee at whose request the marshal service has been provided? Mr. ALEMAN. My request. Mr. EDGAR. Mr. Chairman, I had a number of questions that I wanted to pose to this particular witness, and I have gone over many of them last evening and have several pages of questions that I would like to pursue with the witness, by in light of the drastic change in his testimony which has been at least somewhat apparent this morning and somewhat related to his feelings of fear, I think that there would be little good served to ask those specific questions at this time. And so I will yield back the balance of my time and ask those questions at a later date. Mr. PREYER. Are there any further questions from members of the panel? Mr. Cornwell, any further questions from you? Mr. CORNWELL. No, Mr. Chairman. Mr. PREYER. Mr. Aleman, under the committee rules, every witness is entitled to take 5 minutes at the end of his testimony and the questioning to make any statement that he may care to make by way of clarifying his testimony or explaining it further or just making any statement that you care to make. If there is anything further you wish to say about this matter at this time, the Chair will recognize you for 5 minutes. Mr. ALEMAN. Thank you, sir. I don't want to make no statement. That's all. Mr. PREYER. Thank you, Mr. Aleman. At this time, the committee will excuse Mr. Aleman. Let me again caution everyone in the hearing room to remain seated as Mr. Aleman is excorted from the hearing room. 324 Mr. Aleman, I would like to say to you, from the committee's knowledge of your background and despite anything you may have said here today, the committee has respect for your background and the bravery, the bravery you have shown in the past. We appreciate you being here with us today. Mr. ALEMAN. Thank you. Mr. PREYER. If there is no--the Chair recognizes Mr. Blakey. Mr. BLAKEY. Mr. Chairman, it would be appropriate at this time to indicate for the record that the Cuban Government made available to the committee a list of American gambling figures that were held for possible deportation by the Cuban Government at about the time that Mr. McWillie indicated that they were. And I would ask that that be incorporated in the record as JFK F-410. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, it is entered into the record at this point. [JFK exhibit F-410 was received in the record and follows:] 325 JFK EXHIBIT F-410 STATEMENT OF THE CUBAN GOVERMENT Jake Lansky was in Cuba from May 22, 1956. Dino Vicente Cellini lived in Cuba from 1947. He was detained at Tresconia Camp in 1959. According to data obtained in those years he has or had a sister working as a typist in the White House who solicited the aid of Senator George Smathers of Florida to get Cellini out of Cuba. From public sources we learned that George Smathers informed the Cellini family that he had spoken to Narcotics Commissioner Anslinger who told him that his office had no derogatory information on Cellini. In June 1959, according to our files, the Cuban Government received a letter from the North American Consulate in Havana which expressed that there were arrest warrants for Jake Lansky and Dino Cellini in the U.S. Both were freed. Both left Cuba subsequently but the exact departure date is not known. Santo Trafficante left Tresconia in August 1959. We know he left Cuba a few days after that. Unfortunately, we have found no documents exact date of departure. Lucien Rievard was devoted to drug trafficking. The Cuban government does not know when he entered or departed Cuba. Guiseppe di Georgio -- The Cuban Government knows that he appeared in Havana in June 1958 using a passport with the name Pierre Canavese. We do not-knew what date he left Cuba. Charles Tourine, Jr., was know as Charles del Monico and Charles White. He was closely associated to his father, Charles Tourine, aka Charles White and Charles (the Blade). He entered Cuba on February 20, 1958. The Cuban Government does not know when he left Cuba. He was 326 JFK EXHIBIT 310 cont. involved in gambling and drug trafficking. In the cases of Charles Tourine, Jr., and Lucien Rievard, both were thrown out of Cuba in 1959. The Cuban Governemnt could not determine the exact dates of departure. Joseph Merola.- The Cuban government does-not know when he entered or left Cuba. During Batista's dictatorship he was closely associated to Roberto Fernandez Miranda {who was the brother-in-law of Batista) in a machine installation business throughout Cuba. Henry Saavedra entered Cuba on February 10, 1957. He was freed the same day as Santo Trafficante. The Cuban Government does not know when he left Cuba. Babe Baron -- The Cuban Government has no records on this individual. Further investigation is in progress. Charles del Monico is Charles Tourine, Jr. In our files we have no record that Charles Tourine, Sr., was ever in Cuba. Mr. BLAKEY. I would also note, Mr. Chairman, as you are fully aware of, when the committee was in Havana on August 26, 1978, the Cuban Government made available to the committee, ironically in the Hotel Rivera, an individual who was involved in setting up and operating the Trescornia camp. His testimony was taken at that time by the committee staff and yourself. It would be appropriate to enter that in the record at this time as well. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, his statement will be admitted into the record. Mr. BLAKEY. JFK F-311. Mr. PREYER. JFK F-311. It is ordered admitted into the record. [JFK exhibit F-311 was admitted into the record and follows:] 327 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 KENNEDY SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS Name Jose Verdacia Date Aug. 26, 1978 Time 3:15 p.m. Place Hotel Address Hotel Rivera Havana, Cuba Interview: Blakey: Let me indicate for the record that it is August 26th and it is 3:30 p.m. and the place is the Hotel Rivera in Havana, Cuba. The people present from the American delegation are: Congressman Richard Preyer, G. Robert Blakey, and Edwin Lopez. Would you identify for the record those from the Cuban delegation? Corterez: Senen Buergo from the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Felipe Villa official from the Minister of Interior, Ricardo (Escartin from Foreign) Service Juanita Vera, Interpreter, Aramis Gutierrez, official on the Minister of Interior. Blakey: We have then your permission to record this conversation? Verdacia: Yes you do. Blakey: Would you state for the record your full name? Verdacia: Jose Verdacia Verdecia Interviewer Signature. Typed Signature G. Robert Blakey, Edwin Lopez date transcribed Sept: 27. 1978 By: cs Form #4-a 328 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia page 2 Blakey: Would you state your date and place of birth Verdacia: I was born in Mancinilla Oriental Province July 20, 1914. Blakey: Are you presently employed? Verdacia: Yes I am. Blakey: Where? Verdacia: In the Customs - Havana. Blakey: Let me direct your attention to 1959. Were you employed then? Verdacia: Yes I did. Blakey: Where? Verdacia- In the Immigration Camp at Trescornia. Blakey: What was you position there? Verdacia: I was a Captain of the Police, the Chief of Camp. Blakey: Would you describe for us what Trescornia looked like? Verdacia: Trescornia Camp is located in Casa Blanca, a neighborhood in Havana facing the bay--Havana Bay. The camp is constituted by pavillions. There the passengers, for one reason or the other stayed here and their boats left, they would be taken to that camp. Those passengers would go to that camp until the Navy companies would demand them or would book them in another boat. Blakey: How large was the camp physically? 329 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 3 Verdacia: About one and one-half square kilometers. Blakey: How many sections did it have in it? Verdacia: The camp was divided into eight large pavillions, each devoted to the crew members. Four smaller pavillions--out of this the first one was devoted to the passengers who for any reason -- any problem with a visa, for instance or maybe because they had come without the due documentation-while the problem was solved they were taken to the camp and stayed there. One or two days, that depending on the solution of the problem that had taken them there. Blakey: How many people would have been in each section? Verdacia: At that time we had approximately 40 crew members because at that time we had twenty-one crew members of the peruvian boat which had some problems in the Cuban waters and it was drawn to the Bay so that--and the crew was there at the camp waiting for the boats problem to be solved. The rest of the crew members were occasional people that remained after their boat had left because they just leave the boat and then the boat leaves without them but they stayed there for a shorter period of time. The passengers were also occasional. Sometimes a month would go by without having even one passenger. This happened mainly with European passengers. 330 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 4 who needed all other requirements in order to be able to enter the country. Because I remember that there was a treaty with France that the French did not need a visa to come into the country. That's why the passengers were very few. Now in the midst of 1959 we had quite an amount of people who were taken to the camp. Those people we did have knowledge that they were leaving Cuba temporarily and that they were people who were in charge of the casinos, gambling casinos. Those people I don't remember exactly the amount of them that we had nor the names of them. It is very likely that I wouldn't recognize their face any longer, it was such a long time ago that you can imagine. I do remember some by their names because they have been quite--their names have' been quite known later. Blakey: How many would there have been, fifteen, twenty? Verdacia: I don't think there was that many. Blakey: If I were to give you some names do you think that you might be able to recall whether this--that individual was in Trescornia? Verdacia: Well, I would be very grateful because that way I could remember. Blakey: Would you recall a man named Jake Lanskey? Verdacia: Yes I do. 331 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 5 Blakey: Was he in the prison? Verdacia: Not in that prison because it was not a prison. Blakey: In that camp, I'm sorry. Verdacia: The camp was under the Minister of State of Cuba. There no prisoners were taken. There the people that were under those circumstances, I said before would be taken. Crew members whose boat would have left or passengers that would not be fitting the requirements in due time so they would spend there some days-til their problems were solved. And these people were taken there I think, that in order to have their problems solved too before they left. There were no prisoners there and we were not the kind of police that takes care of public order, but just we were policemen that took care of the order inside the camp. Blakey: Do you recall a man named Charles Tourine? Verdacia: Yes I do. Blakey: Do you recall a man named Lucien Ricuard? Verdacia: It sounds familiar to me too. Blakey: Do you recall a man named Dina Cellini? Verdacia: No. Blakey: Do you recall a man named Henry Civela? Verdaica: No. 332 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 6 Blakey: Do you recall a man named Loran Hall? Verdacia: No I don't Lopez: Eugene Hall? Verdacia: No. Blakey: Let me show you a book that's called Photo Identification book and direct your attention to a photograph on the first three pages and see if you can recall any of those. Verdacia: I tell you honestly that it was such a long time ago that I wouldn't be able to identify him and like that. Blakey: I understand but I have to ask the questions any way. Let me direct your attention to photograph No. 6. Does that individual look familiar? Verdacia: No it doesn't. I don't remember having anyone there with those -- I don't remember the name. Lopez: Sideburns. Verdacia: Sideburns? Blakey: Let me ask you-- this next individual, I do not have his first name but his last name would be Merola. Lopez: Joe. Blakey: Joe Merola. Verdacia: I don't remember. I don't remember having seen anyone like that there. 333 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 7 Blakey: Do you recall -- and then again I don't have the first name Civello. Verdacia: No. Blakey: Do you recall a Giuseppe di Giorgio? Verdacia: No. Blakey: Do you recall a man named Charles Delmonico? Verdacia: Yes I do, I do remember him. Blakey: Do you recall a man named Wilson Hudson? John Wilson Hudson? Verdacia: No, I don't. Blakey: He would have been an English journalist. Verdacia: I remember an English journalist who stayed there for some days. He had been deported from Argentina. I remember that he used to tell me stories of his staying in Argentina. That he had problems there with Peron because he used to make funny stories about Rita Peron, Peron's wife because there was soap by the name of Rita. And he told me stories also about one of his cronics which was issued in one of his British papers that was around Queen Elizabeth. He said that he had written that Queen Elizabeth could handle 2,000 men. I remember the stories that he used to tell me. I don't have any idea of him . I don't have any recollection of him being linked to these other people. I don't remember whether he stayed there coincided with 334 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 8 the stay of these other people. I don't know his name but I do remember the man. Blakey: Were these other individuals all in the same area or sections? Verdacia: Yes they were. Blakey: Could Mr. Hudson have been in an adjourning section? Verdacia: No. All of them were taken to the same pavillion. The first one facing the office. There was where the passengers were taken and on that occasion these men were there. Blakey: What areas would have adjoined the ones where these other individuals would be that the British journalist could have been in? My problem is that I don't have a mental picture of what the camp looks like so I don't understand how the individuals were housed. Verdacia: Let's assume that this is the camp. The entrance to the camp would be this way. Blakey: Perhaps I could ask you to draw a map. Verdacia: Yes I can. Tape turned off. Interpreter: It's on. Verdicia: This is the entrance to Casa Blanca street. It's the same highway which comes around here. It is a bridge and that was the entrance into the camp. 335 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 9 There we had a policeman at the entrance. Blakey: Was the bridge over water? Verdacia: No. Another highway went under it. Blakey: Would you put an arrow on the map indicating which direction was north? Thank you. Would you explain to us how the various individuals were housed in the various villas? Verdacia: This is the pavillion which was devoted to passengers. This pavillion had individual rooms--where the hall and then into their rooms on both sides. The bathrooms were in this part. All these pavillions had a cellar and then here in the cellar they had a cafeteria. These are the stair case to go up the pavillions and down on the cellars where the cafeteria is. There the passengers were taken and on that occasion these. gentlemen that you mentioned were taken to this place. Blakey: All of the individuals, Cellini and the others were taken to the pavillion for passengers? Verdacia: Yes they were. Blakey: Do you recall the individual from Argentina? Verdacia: Yes. Blakey: Which pavillion was he found in? 336 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 10 Verdacia: In that same pavillion. Blakey: But you cannot remember whether he was there at the same time? or before or after? Verdacia: I don't remember. I don't remember whether he was there before or after them. Blakey: Would you sign you name and date on the lower left hand side of this map? Interpreter: Do you want his name or his signature? Blakey: It doesn't matter. Thank you. There was one additional name I wanted to give you. Do you recall if Santo Trafficante was in this pavillion? Verdacia: Yes he was. Blakey: Let me show you a copy of a photograph provided to us today by your government and ask you if you if this is the individual who you knew as Santo Trafficante. Verdacia: Honestly, I can't tell you that I remember his face. The name I remember perfectly well, but the face I can't place it. Blakey: Let me show you a copy of Life magazine dated Sept. 1, 1967, page 21 and show you the photograph by Life "Trafficante Florida" and ask you if that refreshes your recollection. Verdacia: No I cannot identify the face. I cannot tell you with certainty. I can tell you that the name is perfectly clear. I am absolutely sure that he was 337 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. "Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 11 there, but the face I can't recognize. Blakey: Can you recall the circumstances under which Mr. Trafficante and the other individuals whose names you remember came to be housed in the pavillion for passengers? Verdacia: Yes I do remember that. On that occasion many people were taken there. People that I was told they were the operators of the. gambling casinos. But all things I cannot tell you with certainty because I did not have participation in them. I can just tell you that I was the head of police there responsible for the order within the camp. Those people were taken there in the same conditions as any other were taken there and we had to take care of them- Keeping them there til the immigration law determined that they could leave. I cannot tell you exactly either the dates that they spent there, whether it was a month or over a month, but it was along that time. But I knew that this people were individuals in charge of gambling of gambling house and casinos here. Blakey: Were they free to come and go in the camp? Verdacia: No not to enter and go out. The time they spent there they had to stay in the camp until they were given permission to leave. 338 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 12 Blakey: Could they receive mail? Verdacia: Yes they did receive correspondence, visits. Blakey: Did they have access to a telephone? Verdacia: Yes they did. Yes, the crew members and the passengers, all of them had the access to the telephone. Blakey: How were they fed? Verdacia: Their food was taken from the hotels to the Blakey: Did any of the individuals there have a private chef? Verdacia: No they did not. The food was taken to them from hotels in a car. I knew the food came from the hotels, I cannot tell you from what hotel. Blakey: Was the food brought to them by virtue of your activity or did they order their own food? Verdacia: The camp had a standing room for those who wanted to go and have lunch and dinner there. Yes. This me means that those who wanted to have dinner or lunch of the place of the dining room of the camp they could but those who received the food from the hotels it was either because they had sent for 339 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 13 it before previous arrangement with the hotel or something like that, but not because they can't have arrangements. Blakey: The camp did not supply food to the people being held there, is that correct? Verdacia: Yes. The camp supplied the food for them but in the dining room there. They had a dining room. Blakey: Were the people in the camp permitted to have personal belongings? Verdacia: Yes they were. Blakey: Did they have their watches with them? Verdacia: Yes they had. Blakey: Rings? Verdacia: No these kind of people like them--like the ones you mentioned and the passengers" by the crew people they were searched for a kind of knives or things like that that could be used as weapons. Blakey: During the period that Mr. Trafficante was there, did he ever seek his release in connection with his daughter's marriage? Verdacia: I don't know that because I didn't have any authority upon that. Blakey: Are you familiar with the circumstances that led to Mr. Trafficante's release? Verdacia: No I don't they were not of my competence. 340 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 14 Blakey: Do you recall about when he was released? Verdacia: I cannot tell you with accuracy about the date. It could have been in August but I cannot tell you the date exactly. Blakey: You indicated that the passengers and the gambling detainees were permitted to have visitors? Verdacia: Yes. Blakey: Is the name Lewis McWillie familiar to you? Verdacia: No. Blakey: Is the name Jack Rubinstein familiar? Or Jack Ruby? Verdacia: No. Blakey: Let me direct your attention photograph No. 60 in the Photograph Indent. book. Verdacia: I can't tell you. I cannot take that face back to that time. Blakey: Do you recall whether Santo Trafficante had visitors? Verdacia: If I tell you who received visits there I would be lying. The visitors came. They talked with one, two, three -- any one of them. Sometimes they talked together, sometimes they talked just separately. But as they could receive visits we had no reason to interfer with that. 341 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Page 15 Blakey: Was there a visitors log book kept? Verdacia: No we did not. Only those who came out to the camp like the crew members, for instance, were searched for weapons, nothing else. Blakey: Were all of the gambling detainees released at about the same time? Verdacia: Yes they were. Blakey: Did you learn what lead to their release? Verdacia: No I did not. Blakey: I have no further questions, do you? Preyer: I wasn't clear, how long was the gambling detainees there approximately? Verdacia: Approximately a month. Preyer: Did Trafficante cause any difficulty or make requests that were unusual or do anything that particularly called your attention to him? Verdacia: No he did not. Preyer: One other question-- On the British journalist who visited Argentina, you indicated that you didn't think he had met with the gambling detainees and I wasn't clear whether that was because he was not there at the same time because he was in different section of the building. Verdacia: I meant that I cannot tell you with accuracy he stayed at the same time that the other people were there--that the ones you mentioned. I don't 342 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia page 16 even know what was the reason for this man being taken into the camp. If it was because of this paper or something like that, I don't know. The direction and administration of immigration was in charge of this problem. I had nothing to do with that. Preyer: You told us that this was not a prison, Verdacia: Of course not. Preyer: Was there any kind of security? Verdacia: We had no security personnel but rather policeman. We had three post, one at the entrance at the gate, another one at another place and one behind the pavillion in which the crew members were located because the crew members were the ones that would try mostly to leave the camp unseen, and then there was a sergeant in charge of these post. There was a boulevard there and they could walk along the gardens and the boulevard in the days and talk and do anything. Preyer: Was there a fence around the entire--- Verdacia: Yes there was a fence. Preyer: I have no further questions. Blakey: I have no other questions at this time and for the record let me indicate that it 4:15. Would you object if I took your photograph to perserve it for our records in connection with your testimony? Verdacia: I have no objections. 343 JFK EXHIBIT F-311 cont. Interview: Jose Verdacia Interpreter: He doesn't want his picture taken. Blakey: Let me thank him for coming and speaking with us and sharing with us your memory. I am sure it has been very difficult to go back that far but we appreciate your--the helpful way in which you have clarified what the camp looked like and who was held there and the very circumstances sourrounding these matters. Mr. BLAKEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. PREYER. The committee will adjourn until 2 o'clock this afternoon. [Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m. the Select Committee on Assassina- tions recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.] AFTERNOON SESSION Mr. PREYER [now presiding]. The committee will come to order. I regret that the chairman of the committee has been called before the House/Senate Foreign Operations Conference Committee at 2 o'clock today. The chairman was to do the questioning of the next witness. He anticipates that this conference, his appearance there will not take longer than an hour, so that at this time, the committee will stand in recess until 3:30 this afternoon when I hope he will be here and we will be able to resume. The committee stands in recess until 3:30 this afternoon. [A recess was taken until 3:30 p.m.] Mr. PREYER [3:44 p.m.]. We are getting word, which we think we will get momentarily, as to Mr. Stokes availability and we will let you know as soon as we learn something. Mr. PREYER [4:30 p.m.]. The chairman has finished his activities with the conference committee so that as soon as this pending vote on the floor is dealt with, we will resume. I think that will be in about 10 or 15 minutes. We will go into session then. Mr. PREYER [5:10 p.m.]. The committee will come to order. The Chair recognizes Chairman Stokes. Chairman STOKES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think it appropriate in light of the fact that at the time we adjourned this morning, the chair announced that the committee would again meet at 2 p.m. this afternoon. In addition to duties and responsibilities I have on this committee, I happen to be a member of the Appropriations Committee of the House, and a House/Senate conference started at 2 p.m. this afternoon and at the request of the president, relating to an item he was particularly concerned about in that appropriations bill, I was asked to be 344 there to be present in order to contribute to that House/Senate conference. I was in that House/Senate conference from 2 this afternoon until 5 p.m. this afternoon at which time I immediately came back to this hearing room. We were then ready to recommence the hearings and we have just been advised that the witness, who has a physical condition, has advised the committee that he would prefer not to be called this evening, because he has waited all day to be called as a witness, and because of the physical condition, does not feel that he can at this time come before the committee and has requested that we have the hearing first thing tomorrow morning, and he be called at that time. Accordingly, the committee feels this request should be granted and, Mr. Chairman, it would be appropriate for you to adjourn this meeting then until the time set for tomorrow morning. Mr. PREYER. The committee will stand adjourned until 8:30 to. m[Whereupon, at 5:13 p.m., the committee was adjourned, to reconvene at 8:30 a.m. on Thursday, September 28, 1978.] ASSASSINATION OF INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1978 HOUSE OF REX, RESENTATIVES, SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS, Washington, D.C. The committee met at 8:45 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 345, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Richardson Preyer presiding. Edgar, Devine, McKinney, and Sawyer. Also present: G. Robert Blakey, chief counsel; G. Cornwell, deputy chief counsel; Elizabeth Berning, chief clerk; and I. Charles Matthews, special counsel. Mr. Preyer. The committee will come to order. The Chair recognizes Mr. Blakey. Mr. Blakey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What the committee witnessed here yesterday is more typical of organized crime investigations than we had thought perhaps the testimony would be. Skillful interrogation has, in fact, elicited only meager amounts of information, and we have seen manifested in a witness that fear that is all too often characteristic of people called to testify in matters touching on organized crime. A fear that, frankly must be recognized as justified. Indeed, I would note that in the organized crime and racketeering section in the U.S. Department of Justice between 1961 and 1965, in which I served, more than 25 informants were lost in organized crime cases, killed by those who would prevent their testimony from being made public. But it is necessary, nevertheless, to continue the exploration and illustration of the committee's work. In that context, it would be appropriate at this time to call Santos Trafficante. Mr. Chairman, I understand Mr. Trafficante has requested that there be no radio, TV, photographs, or recordings made of him at any time during his testimony. consequently, it would be appropri- ate consistent with the rules of this committee and the House to enter an order to that effect. Mr. PREYER. The witness, having requested that he not be sub- jected to radio, television, or photographic coverage, the committee directs that all lenses be covered and that all microphones used for coverage be turned off at this time. The committee calls Santos Trafficante. Mr. Trafficante, will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this commit- tee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God. (345) 346 Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I do. TESTIMONY OF SANTOS TRAFFICANTE Mr. PREYER. Thank you. Mr. GONZALEZ. Mr. Chairman, I am Henry Gonzales. I don't know if the committee has been advised, we are exercising our rights under rule No. 6 of the House Rules. Mr. PREYER. Yes, Mr. Gonzalez. The Chair will recognize Mr. Stokes for questioning, and I believe the matters you mentioned will be brought out in due course. Chairman STOKES. For the record, will the witness please state his full name. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Santos Trafficante. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, where are you currently living? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. 740 Northeast, 155th Street, North Miami. Chairman STOKES. Will you tell us when and where you were born? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. At this time I want to exercise my privilege and my constitutional right to take the Fifth amendment. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, I request that you have the clerk show the witness JFK exhibit No. F-411, an order of Judge Gasch conferring immunity upon the witness and compelling his testimony. Mr. PREYER. Yes; Mr. Trafficante the committee has determined earlier that it desires to immunize your testimony, and the clerk is directed at this time to show the witness a certified copy of the immunity order of Judge Gasch, and it is ordered inserted into the record at this point, JFK F-411. [The Immunity Order, JFK F-411 follows:] 347 JFK EXHIBIT F-411 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ----------------------------------------- In the Matter of the Application of ) ) UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ) Misc. No. 78-287 SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS ) ) ------------------------------------------ ORDER CONFERRING IMMUNITY UPON AND COMPELLING TESTIMONY FROM SANTO TRAFFICANTE The United States House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations having made written application, and pursuant to Title 18, United States Code, Sections 6002 and 6005, for an order conferring immunity upon Santo Trafficante and compelling him to testify and provide other information before the Select Committee on Assassinations, and the court finding that all procedures specified by 56005 have been duly followed, it is hereby, this 20th day of September 1978, ORDERED, that Santo Trafficante in accordance with the provisions of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 6002 and 6005, shall not be excused from testifying or providing other information before the Select Committee on Assassinations on the grounds that the testimony or other information sought may tend to incriminate him. ORDERED FURTHER, that Santo Trafficante appear when subpoenaed by said Committee and testify and provide such other information that is sought with respect to matters under inquiry by said Committee. 348 JFK EXHIBIT F-411 cont. AND IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that no testimony or other information compelled under this order (or any information directly or indirectly derived from such testimony or other information may be used against Santo Trafficante in any criminal case, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false statement or otherwise failing to comply with this ORDER. United States District Judge Dated: Sept. 20 1978 A TRUE COPY JAMES F. DAVEY, Clerk by_________________________ Deputy Clerk Mr. PREYER. I believe, Mr. Trafficante, and Mr. Gonzalez, that you have seen a copy of this order at an earlier date. Mr. GONZALEZ. That's correct, Mr. Chairman. Mr. PREYER. In light of the immunity order, the committee directs you to answer the question, Mr. Trafficante. Mr. GONZALEZ. Mr. Chairman, prior to answering any of the questions propounded, we would like to have the declaration made by counsel for the committee on behalf of the committee whether or not any of the questions that will be propounded to Mr. Trafficante are derived from either legal or illegal monitoring of Mr. Trafficante at any time in the past, and we would exercise that right and make that request under title 18, section 3504. Mr. PREYER. The Chair will state, Mr. Gonzalez, that no question you will be asked in this hearing today is based on any electronic surveillance, as to which you have standing to object. Mr. GONZALEZ. Furthermore, Mr. Chairman, I would like, prior to commencement of questioning, I believe it was either yesterday or the day before I submitted a document from a doctor which I would most respectfully ask that it be incorporated as part of the record and each of the committee members take consideration and do take consideration of the contents therein in the conducting of the hearing at this time. Mr. PREYER. Mr. Gonzalez, each member of the committee has received a copy of this letter and has read it and, without objection, a copy of the letter' will be made a part of the record at this point. [The referred to document furnished for the record follows:] 349 November 23, 1977 TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN: In re: Mr. Santo Trafficante Watson Clinic #179243 The above-mentioned patient has been under my care since 1969. He has had chronic hypertensive vascular disease. His first evidence of organic heart disease was in August, 1974, when he had the onset in another country of pulmonary edema. The electrocardiogram changed and showed evidence of anterior wall ischemia. It was felt that he had had a myocardial infarction at that time. Be has had chronically elevated cholesterol and triglycerides, as well as temporary elevations of uric acid which have been controlled by medication. He has also had a polyp removed from his colon which was benign but required abdominal surgery in 1971. He had a retinal detachment in 1974 and rather severe and disabling osteoarthritis of the lumbosacral spine. Currently, he is suffering from angina pectoris on either exposure to tension or to exertion. He was evaluated in the clinic by Dr. Alan Brenner, Cardiologist, who agreed with his management program which consists of Aldomet 500 mg. b.i.d., Inderal 40 rag. q.i.d., Col-Benemid - one tablet twice daily, potassium supplements, HydroDiuril 50 mg. daily, and Apresoline 10 mg. t.i.d. He recommended the addition of Isordil and he now receives 5 rag. sublingually q.i.d. For his arthritis, he has been given Tolectin, two tablets t.i.d. In essence, Mr. Trafficante is an ill man and has significant cardiovascular disease, making him at great risk for a recurrence of myocardial infarction. His angina is brought on by stressful events, either physical or emotional. It would seem unwise for him to be exposed to prolonged emotional or physical stress. For this reason, it would be better if his current legal difficulties could be handled by deposition rather than having to undergo the more stressful personal appearances. John V. Verner, Jr., M.D. sr(w30)73 JFK EXHIBIT F-412 350 Mr. DEVINE. Reserving the right to object, does the Chair make the reference to the letter from a clinic dated September 1977? Mr. GONZALEZ. No, sir, it is November 23, 1977. Mr. DEVINE. 1977. That is the one. I withdraw my reservation, Mr. Chairman. Mr. GONZALEZ. Mr. Chairman, pursuant to the subpena that Mr. Trafficante is here responding to of this committee, pursuant to the order of the Federal district judge here in this area and we at this time are prepared to continue the questioning. Mr. PREYER. Thank you, Mr. Gonzalez. Before we continue with the questioning, the Chair would like to read to the witness a statement of the scope of the hearing which appears as the mandate of this committee in H. Res. 222. The select committee or a subcommittee thereof is authorized and directed to conduct a full and complete investigation and study of the circumstances surrounding the assassination and death of President John F. Kennedy and the assassination and death of Martin Luther King, and of any other persons the select committee shall determine might be related to either death in order to ascertain (1) whether the existing laws of the United States, including but not limited to laws relating to the safety and protection of the President of the United States, assassinations of the President of the United States, deprivation of civil rights and conspiracies related thereto, as well as the investigatory jurisdiction and capability of agencies and departments of the U.S- Government are adequate either in their provisions or in the manner of their enforcement and, (2) whether there was full disclosure and sharing of information and evidence among agencies and departments of the U.S. Government during the course of all prior investigations into those deaths, and whether any evidence or information which was not in the possession of any agency or department of the U.S. Government investigating either death would have been of assistance to that agency or department, and why such information was not provided to or collected by the appropriate agency or department and shall make recommendations to the House, if the select committee deems it appropriate for the amendment of existing legislation or the enactment of new legislation. The Chair recognizes Mr. Stokes to begin the questioning. Proceed with the questioning at this time. Chairman STOKES. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Trafficante, I believe at the point you interjected your motion, I had asked you to tell us when and where you were born. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Tampa, Fla., November 15, 1914. Chairman STOKES. What is your current occupation? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I am retired. Chairman STOKES. During the period 1957 and 1958, where were you living? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. In Havana, Cuba. Chairman STOKES. Could you tell us when you moved to Cuba? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Around 1953 or 1954, in the latter part of 1953 or 1954. Chairman STOKES. Now, during 1959, did you travel between the United States and Cuba? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I don't think I did. Maybe. In the latter part of 1959, I might have. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us what business or employment you had while you were in Cuba? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I was in the gambling business and nightclub casino business, which was legal at that time in Cuba. Chairman STOKES. Being in the business, did you own several pieces of casinos in Cuba? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I had some interests in some casinos. 351 Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us how many? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well maybe three or four. Chairman STOKES. Did you have an interest in the Sans Souci? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. How about the Tropicana? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Chairman STOKES. Capri? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Chairman STOKES. Which were the others you had an interest in? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Deauville, the Commodore. Chairman STOKES. In order to operate your casinos in 1957-58, did you have to pay money to Cuban officials to maintain the operation of your casinos? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. We had to pay a license of $25,000 a year and we had to give 50 percent of the take of the slot machines. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, do you know a Rafael Gener while you were in Cuba? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I didn't get the name. Chairman STOKES. Gener, Rafael Gener. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. How do you spell it? Chairman STOKES. I believe is it spelled G-E-N-E-R, but pronounced Gener. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. P-e-, you said. Chairman STOKES. G, as in George. G-e-n-e-r, but is pronounced Gener. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Gener, Macho Gener; yes I knew a Gener by that name. Chairman STOKES. Did you meet him while in Cuba? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I met him after the event of Fidel Castro. He had been in exile before. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, did you know a Mr. Joseph Stassi? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. How did you come to know him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. He was connected with me for a while in the Sans Souci. Chairman STOKES. What was his relationship to you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. He was a partner in the Sans Souci. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us in late 1958, what was the result of the activities of Castro? How did it affect the tourist and gambling business there in Havana? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. You are talking about 1958 before Castro came in? Chairman STOKES. Before he came in, yes. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. It wasn't too good, Every other day they had bombs and stuff like that. It was nothing. Chairman STOKES. What effect did it have on the gambling business? How did it affect your business? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Because every day there were bombs put in different spots and the first thing you know, even if there were a 352 couple bombs, before the night was over, there were 200, supposedly, rumors, stuff flying around and people would stay home. Chairman STOKES. I suppose that this then caused the casino operators a great deal of concern, did it not? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I suppose so. Chairman STOKES. And was there fear on the part of the operators that if Castro came to power that he would confiscate these businesses? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Chairman STOKES. Was there anticipated at all that he might come to power at that time? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Nobody ever dreamt that he would come to power at that time. Chairman STOKES. Did you or any of the other casion operators take any steps to protect your businesses in the event that he would come to power? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. There was no question about him taking to power. They used to--in the papers when you would read about him, you would read like he was some kind of a bandit. Chairman STOKES. Did you meet Fidel or Raoul Castro prior to January 1, 1959? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Chairman STOKES. When Fidel Castro took over, how soon did he order the casinos to be closed? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, even before he reached Havana, because he didn't come down from the mountain until after Batista had left, and he had a walkathon, you would call it, from the moun- tains to Havana, and they kept interviewing him and he kept saying the casinos would close, statements to that effect, the casi- nos close without even being notified officially to close. Everything was in a turmoil. There was people all over the streets, breaking into homes, there was complete enmity and the only thing at that time was to try and stay alive. Chairman STOKES. What was his attitude toward casino owners and operators? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, he did a lot of talking in those days. I doubt if he knew what the hell he was talking about, but he used to do a lot of talking against the Marines, the United States and this and that. So nobody knew where you stood with him. Chairman STOKES. About that time, did you have any reason to contact Mr. Gener, whom we have referred to earlier, the gentle- man we referred to earlier? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I think Mr. Gener contacted me, if my recol- lection is right. In fact, I think it was looking to take over the apartment that I used to live, because he thought it was a matter of time before I would have to leave Cuba. Chairman STOKES. After--- Mr. TRAFFICANTE. That's how I got to meet him. I met him in my own apartment, that in case, he said, if you leave, I would like to have this apartment. So, I say, OK. ' Chairman STOKES. After Castro came to power, did you continue to operate your business as usual? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, everything was closed but after 2, maybe 3 months, or 4 months or 5 months, I don't remember when, he 353 ordered all the casions to open up again and when I said order, he ordered it. You either had to open up or lose--or go to jail. Chairman STOKES. And what did you do? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well I stayed away from the San souci, which was a lemon. So I stood around there to see what would happen, mostly to see he closed the door there. What he did was, he made the casinos open and he obligated all the casinos owners to pay the backpay of all these months that these people had not worked, and as soon as they got the backpay, then he will find a reason to close them, some of them, the ones he considered that were in the middle district of the city or the poor district of the city. Chairman STOKES. This would have meant then that anyone who reopened would have to pay those employees about 3 months wages; is that right? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. about 3 or 4 months wages, yeah. Chairman STOKES. Did a time come when you were detained or imprisoned there in Cuba? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. And can you tell us when that was? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I cannot tell you the exact date, but the thing was that I was detained, I was being--how would you call it [con- ferred with counsel]--I got news that Cuban officials were looking for to put me in jail because one of the things was that I was a Batista collaborator. They raided my apartment, they were looking for money, they tore up all the furniture, they used to come and get me at nighttime, take me out in the woods, trying to tell where I had my money, this and that, until I finally went into hiding. And they kept on and nobody knew what was going on. I mean, these were a bunch of, most of them were 15,16,17, years old. They had weapons, it was a bad time to be around there. Chairman STOKES. Now, do the dates June 8 to August 18, 1959, sound about the time that you were imprisoned? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, no I was imprisoned on June 21st. I was there because one of my daughters got married on that day, and I had been in jail before. I had been in jail, I would say, at least a month or two. They let me out that day to go to the wedding because the thing was that these people thought-- when they finally arrested me, they thought that I was being, that I was wanted in the United States for all kinds of charges-- narcotics. there were this and that and when they check it out, they found out nobody wanted me in the states. So then they had me in Trescornia which was immigration center, and they didn't know there for a while what to do with me. And I think that the reason they later did not deport me was because the United States wanted for them to depart me. So they figure, well, they said, this guy cannot be because at that time everybody to them was a spy, was this, was that. Chairman STOKES. So it wasn't actually like a prison, was it? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No; it was not. We had it pretty good. Mr. PREYER. You had it pretty good? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. We had it pretty good. We had our own food coming in and everything. It was like a big camp, like a big concentration camp. We had our own room. It wasn't too bad. 354 Chairman STOKES. And can you give us some idea about how many persons were being detained there at that time? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, they had two sides to this thing. They had, most of this thing, a lot of these people entered Cuba with no papers, especially sailors and people with no means of support. They would put them on one side and people that they thought had means of support that were not public charges, they would put them on the other side. I think at one time in our compound, you would call it, I think, we got to be about seven or eight. Chairman STOKES. Were those other seven or eight also casino owners and operators? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Most of them were workers or casino owners. Chairman STOKES. Did you know most of them? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us who they were? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, for a time there, I would say for a day or two there was Mr. Dino Cellini, Mr. Jake Lansky, and myself, a fellow by the name of Chuck White, Guiseppe Di George, and that is about it. Chairman STOKES. Now, had you known all of these people before you went to the compound with them? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes sir. I found most of them there. Then in a few days Mr. Lansky and Mr. Cellini, they were taken out and they were freed, in other words, they weren't deported or nothing. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, did you contact anyone to assist you in getting out of the detention center? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I had a lot of people come and see me trying to help me to get out, and the attorney that I had was a fellow by the name of Mr. Bango, and I think Mr. Gener was interested in getting me out and a lot of other people that were in the casino business, native people, like Mr. Fox and Mr. Petere and Mr. Alfredo Gonzalez and Mr. Raoul Gonzalez. We had a good relationship and they all tried their best to get me out. Chairman STOKES. At the time you were released, were any of the other casino operators or owners released with you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Most of them had been released except this fellow Guiseppe Di George, who was deported to Italy. He was held there for deportation to Italy because he was an Italian citizen. Chairman STOKES. In order to effect your release, did you have to pay any money? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No sir. Chairman STOKES. Did Raoul Castro have anything to do with your release? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I think he helped in my release. Chairman STOKES. At least you have heard that he did. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, no, I had a friend of mine by the name of Raoul Gonzalez, who used to run the Hilton Hotel, where Raoul Castro used to go very frequently, and he talked to him one day about me, and the fellow says, well, I understand he is in the drug business, and this fellow told him, if he is in the drug business then you get me and shoot me against the wall because I can vouch for him. 355 He says, well, you wait a while, I see what I can do about it. And eventually, after a month or two, I was released. Chairman STOKES. And after you were released, Mr. Trafficante, how long did you remain in Havana? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I remained in Havana until, I am not sure now, I had a case, I had a trial coming up in Jacksonville, Fla., on tax matter so I came in for that trial, I believe it was the latter part of 1959, the month of October or November, I don't remember when. It lasted about 8 weeks. I was acquitted. Then I spent the holidays, I think in Florida, then I went back to Havana. Chairman STOKES. When you returned to Havana what was your feeling about the climate there in terms of the economy and your investment in the casino operations? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Very bad. I knew sooner or later I would have to get out of there. Chairman STOKES. After your release from prison, did you ever meet Raoul or Fidel Castro? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I met Raoul Castro one time at the Hilton Hotel. I happened to be there, in fact, and the same Raoul Gonza- lez, he has told me if you want to thank him, he is upstairs, in some kind of a place, some kind of a room there, like a public bar or something, and so I went up there and he was going down the stairs so this fellow called to him and made him stop, and I went there and I thanked him, and he said well, just behave and don't give nothing to nobody, don't let nobody shake you down or noth- ing like that, and just behave and you will be all right here, you don't have to leave, you don't have to go no place. Chairman STOKES. This was Raoul you are talking about? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Raoul. Fidel Castro I used to see him practically every night in front the Hilton where he used to come in about 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning, and the first thing you know there were-- like to talk to the people in the streets. First thing you know there were 400 or 500 people at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning and he would be talking all night long and I used to watch him, too, with the rest of the people. I never did talk to him, though. Chairman STOKES. You never did talk with him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. And the only one that talked to him was, while I was in jail, was my wife, who wanted to get permission for me to go and see my daughter, if he would let me out of jail to give my daughter away. She was supposed to be married. Chairman STOKES. And he granted that request? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. And he did. He granted the request with a lot of protection and a lot of bodyguards, thinking I would run away, or something, I don't know. Chairman STOKES. After you got out of Trescornia, did you reopen your casino business? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, I didn't reopen I stayed away from the Sans Souci completely. The only thing that the Commodore was still open and I had an interest in the Commodore and the Deauville, he kept it open until all the workers were paid and then he closed that, so anyhow, the thing was that the dollar started getting stronger and the Cuban peso started getting weaker, and it was cheap to live there and I knew people there and I felt comfort- 356 able there as long as I didn't see nothing out of the way, but the further, the more time passed, I could see that I had to leave there, able there, as long as I didn't see nothing out of the way, but the there was nothing there for me, there was going to be trouble there. Everybody was getting arrested and nobody was safe, so around the middle of 1960 I made out I was coming to the States for just a visit and I never went back. Chairman STOKES. Well, you had quite a bit of money invested in your operations there, didn't you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No; I wouldn't say I had too much money invested. Chairman STOKES. Did you do anything in terms of getting your money out and getting it back to the States? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, because at that time most of the money that I had there was Cuban money and at the time that I left it was worth about 10 to 1. Chairman STOKES. That is 10--- Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Ten pesos to $1. Chairman STOKES. To $1. So you were suffering quite a loss then? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I wouldn't say I did. I was young, I had a good time, and that was it. I chucked it off to experience. Chairman STOKES. Are you familiar with what the other casino operators did in terms of trying to get their investments out? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, I am not. Chairman STOKES. Now, after you returned to the States the last time you referred to, when you left in the middle of 1960? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes, I think around the middle of 1960. Chairman STOKES. Then, of course, you never went back? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No sir. Chairman STOKES. Now, you just said that in terms of your investment you didn't feel that it was too much. Can you give us some idea what you feel your loss was? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, I can't give you no idea. Chairman STOKES. Was it a little bit of money or a lot of money? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, it wasn't no little bit and it wasn't too much either. Chairman STOKES. Well, are we talking about thousands of dollars or millions of dollars? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. You are talking about thousands. Chairman STOKES. Well, when you consider all four of the places in which you had an interest, would you say that collectively your investment could have been over a million dollars? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Chairman STOKES. If I told you, Mr. Trafficante, that Mr. Ricardo Escartene, who is the current Cuban Consul and First Secretary in Washington, told the committee that their records indicate, for example, that the net profit of the Riviera Hotel was $25 million in 1958, would you say that was a true statement? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I couldn't tell you because I didn't have nothing to do with the Riviera Hotel. Chairman STOKES. When you left Cuba, where did you next live? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I lived in Miami. 357 Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, when was the first time you were ever approached by any individual who was affiliated with or working for the CIA? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. It was around either the latter part of 1960, or first part of 1961. Chairman STOKES. And can you tell us who was the person who first contacted you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. John Roselli. Chairman STOKES. And where did he approach you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I think we were in the Fontaine bleau Hotel. Chairman STOKES. And can you give us the date? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Chairman STOKES. Can you approximate the time? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I told you it was either the latter part of 1960 or first part of 1961. Chairman STOKES. Did you know Mr. Roselli before that date? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes, I had met him. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us how you knew him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, at this moment I don't remember how I met him but I knew him. Chairman STOKES. And how long had you known him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I would say about 15 years, 15-16 years. Chairman STOKES. Now, had Mr. Roselli ever had any business interests in Cuba? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Chairman STOKES. Over the period of time that you had known him, how often had you and he come into contact? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Very few. Chairman STOKES. Now, did he tell you how he came to be affiliated with the CIA? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Chairman STOKES. This first meeting was just between the two of you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes, the first time, yes. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us the substance of the conversation you had with him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, he told me that CIA and the United States Government was involved in eliminating Castro. And if I would happen, and if Mr. Gener, if Mr. Macho Gener, if I knew about him, knew what kind of man he was. I told him I think he was a good man, he was against Castro anyhow, and that is about it. Then he introduced me to Mr. Maheu, and then Mr. Giancana came into the picture. Chairman STOKES. Mr. who? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Giancana. Mr. Roselli wanted me to be more or less an interpreter in the situation because he couldn't speak Spanish and I can speak Spanish fluently. Chairman STOKES. How long after the first meeting you had with Roselli did the second meeting occur with Maheu and then Gian- cana? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. They were all staying at the Fountainebleau Hotel. It was a matter of days. 358 Chairman STOKES. What was your reaction to killing President Castro? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well at the time I think that it was a good thing because he had established a communistic base 90 miles from the United States and being that the Government of the United States wanted it done, I go along with it, the same thing as a war, I figure it was like a war. Chairman STOKES. Now, obviously Mr. Roselli, in order to ap- proach you and discuss this with you, trusted you, right? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. All in all, can you give us some idea about how many meetings took place between the group? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Not too many, because just like I tell you, they used me to be an interpreter and then we met Mr. Gener, then I took him to a place where they met some Cubans who were very active, supposedly leaders of the American-backed factions who were in charge of trying to eliminate Castro through revolution or any other way that they could, and I think I assisted a couple of times and that is the only thing I can say about that. Chairman STOKES. Well, since you were going to be the interpreter it would be necessary for you to be present at all of the meetings in order to interpret the conversations, right? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes, but after a couple of meetings they found out that they could get along without me, I guess, and they told me they didn't need my services anymore and that was the last that I, they didn't need my services anymore, and that was the last that I, when they told me that I backed off, I wasn't going to. Chairman STOKES. Now, what was the total time span that you were involved in the discussions about killing Castro? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I can, I cannot, I couldn't be truthful with you. I couldn't, I would say it would say it would be a matter of about a month or month and a half or two months. We are going back a long time now. I used to see Maheu, I used to see Mr. Roselli, I used to see Giancana at the Fontaine bleau, but there was no discussion. I might meet him at a bar or the lounge and have a drink or something like that, but there would be no more discussions about the Castro thing. Chairman STOKES. When you would have these meetings other assassinating Castro, would you have discussions about things, too? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Not that I remember. Chairman STOKES. Was Sam Giancana in the Miami area all the time that these meetings were taking place? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes, he was, he was there. Chairman STOKES. And what was--- Mr. TRAFFICANTE. He might leave, I guess, and come back, or something, but I think he was there most of the time. Chairman STOKES. What was your connection with Sam Gian- cana? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I happened to know Mr. Giancana. There was no connection at all. Chairman STOKES. How long had you known him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Oh, I would say about 10 or 15 years, too. Chairman STOKES. Was he fully aware of the plot to assassinate Castro? 359 Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. And exactly how did he become aware of it? Mr TRAFFICANTE. I don't know. I don't know how he became aware, unless--I think it was through Mr. Roselli that brought him in. Chairman STOKES. And do you know what his role was supposed to be in the assassination? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, I don't. Chairman STOKES. Do you know if Giancana had directed Roselli contact you in regard to this operation? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I don't know. Maybe he did. It could be possible. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us why Roselli approached you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, I guess he knew I had been in Cuba, he figured I had I knew people there, he thought I could be of help, I spoke the language he didn't, he had to deal with Cuban people. I thought he figured he could trust me. Chairman STOKES. When he came to you and talked about the CIA, what did he say to you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, I can't tell the exact words what he said to me but more or less he was working for him and Mr Maheu were working for the CIA and that they were working for the CIA and that the United States Government wanted this thing done. That is what he said to me. Chairman STOKES. Did he say what his role or capacity was with the CIA? MR. TRAFFICANTE. He made me understand he was an agent of the CIA. Chairman STOKES. Now, what was your total involement to be in the assassination plot? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. My total involvement was to be the interpreter and these Cuban people that I between Mr. Roselli, Mr. Maheu, took them to Mr. Gener suggested that we see, and that I remember driving them there maybe a couple of times. Chairman STOKES. Driving them where? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. To the home of this Cuban leader that was supposed to be backed by the American Government in the attempt to get rid of Castro. Chairman STOKES. And what was Mr. Gener's role to be? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, he made the introduction to everybody with this gentleman. Chairman STOKES. Who brought Gener into the operation? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. How was that? Chairman STOKES. Who brought Gener into the operation? MR. TRAFFICANTE. Roselli asked me about him and evidently he had heard about Gener. I couldn't tell you who brought him in but I told him he was all right anyhow. Chairman STOKES. Well, in light of the fact that you knew Gener in Cuba, where you had business operations, and you have told us that Roselli had no business operations in Cuba--- Mr. TRAFFICANTE. That is right. Chairman STOKES. How would Roselli come to know Gener? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, the only reason the only way I can figure out is that Gener was very active in the campaign against 360 Castro and Roselli was looking for people that were active in the campaign against Castro, and some kind of way he heard about them or they got together some kind of way. Chairman STOKES. But the person who would have more knowl- edge about Gener and others who were involved would be you, isn't that true? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I don't see why I should have been the only one. He asked me about him before he talked to him, I think. Chairman STOKES. OK. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. And CIA probably knew about Gener and had some connection with Gener asked me something. I am telling you the truth of what I know about it and how he came about and how it came about, I don't know how, but it came about. Chairman STOKES. At any rate, yo told him Gener was okay? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. That is right. Chairman STOKES. Now I want to make reference to a person whom we will refer to in conversation as "y". You know whom I am talking about, don't you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. The reason we are using this is because this person's name has not been declassified. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. You understand that. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. Prior to any questions on this point I want to state this: the Church Committee in their report, page 80, described this particular person as quote "A leading figure in the Cuban exile movement." Now, when did you first meet "Y" Mr. Trafficante? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I met him through Mr. Gener when I took Maheu and Mr. Roselli. I drove the car. Chairman STOKES. You had not met him previously? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I had not met him previously. Maybe I had seen him in Cuba but I had never met him or talked to him. Chairman STOKES. Who brought Mr."Y" into the plot? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Gener. Chairman STOKES. What was Mr. "Y's role to be? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. He was one of the leaders of the American backed faction of the movement against Castro in the United States. He was one of the top leaders. Chairman STOKES. Did Mr. "Y" speak both Spanish and English? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I doubt it, no. He spoke Spanish because I was there, I interpreted for him, especially the first time. Chairman STOKES. He was one of the persons for whom you interpreted? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. He was the only person I interpreted. Chairman STOKES. Now did Mr."Y" ever ask you for assistance in financing anti-Castro activities? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. I haven't seen Mr."Y" since a couple of times, I think it was. I think it was. I don't think it was more than two times, could have been three, but I haven't seen him since then. 361 Chairman STOKES. Did you ever ask Mr. "Y" if he would be interested in participating in this? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. How was that? Chairman STOKES. Did you ever ask Mr. "Y" if he would be willing to participate in this plot? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman SToKEs. Did you ever offer Mr. Y assistance of any type in conjunction with any anti-Castro activities that he was engaged in? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Y who would run the gambling businesses in Cuba in the event that Castro was overturned? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Chairman STOKES. Now, it is your statement that all times your sole function was to interpret for this group? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. Is that correct? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, I want to read a portion of a declassified CIA Inspector General's report--1967. I am reading at pages 29 and 31 of that document: * * Roselli told [support chief] that Trafficante knew of a man high up in the Cuban exile movement who might do the job. He identified him as [Mr. "Y"]. The report then goes on to say this: Comment: Reports from the FBI suggest how Trafficante may have known of ["Y"]. On 21 December 1960, Bureau forwarded to the Agency a memorandum reporting that efforts were being made by U.S. racketeers to finance anti-Castro activities in hopes of securing gambling, prostitution, and dope monopolies in Cuba in the event Castro was overthrown. A report of January 18, 1961, also associated "Y" with these schemes. The 1967 Inspector General's report continues: Trafficante approached ["Y"] and told him that he had clients who wanted to dc away with Castro and that they would pay big money for the job. "Y" is reported to have been very receptive since it would mean that he would be able to buy his own ships, arms and communications equipment. Mr. Trafficante, having heard what the Inspector General of the CIA had to say about your involvement, is your answer still the same? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Absolutely the same. Chairman STOKES. When you were asked to interpret for these persons who were plotting, what method was discussed of how they were going to eliminate Castro? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Any way, where they took a cannon, pills, tanks, airplanes, anything. Chairman STOKES. Was there discussion about poison pills? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. There was discussion of pills; yes, sir. I am telling you any kind of way that was possible to get rid of him. There was not only one way, of the pills, any kind of way, pills included. 362 Chairman STOKES. Let me confine my question at this point to the pills. Who proposed the pills? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I know I didn't. Chairman STOKES. My question was who did? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I don't know if it was Maheu or Roselli. Chairman STOKES. And were the pills ever given to anyone? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I think they were but I don't recall me being present when they were. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us when and where the pills were given to someone? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I don't recall me being present when the pills were given. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us who was to administer the pills to Castro? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. The pills to Castro was supposed to be administrated by Mr. "X". Chairman STOKES. Was any money discussed in conjunction with this? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. There was never no money discussed for none of these activities in no way, shape or form in my presence. Chairman STOKES. You mentioned all the different ways that would be utilized to get rid of Castro. Did anyone ever supply any of the arms or ammunition or the tanks or the airplanes to them for that purpose? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I think I heard later, after this Bay of Pigs, they still kept on sending arms and boats and explosives and stuff like that, but I am not sure, I just heard that from Mr. Roselli. Later on, years later. Chairman STOKES. Now, I want to make reference to Mr. "X" for reasons that his name is also not declassified. You know whom I am talking about? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. Now, I want to also make reference to the fact, before I pose any questions, that the Church Committee in their interim report at page 80, described this person as a Cuban "official close to Castro, who may have received kickbacks from the gambling interests." Now, you do know Mr. "X"? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I think I have spoke to Mr. "X", met him one time in Havana. Chairman STOKES. And what was your relationship to him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I never did give him any money. Chairman STOKES. Well, what relationship did you have after you met him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I didn't have no relationship with him. The relationship was through Mr. Gener. Chairman STOKES. What was Mr. "X's" involvement in these plots? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, I think he was going to take care of the pills. Chairman STOKES. To take care of the pills? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. Do you know if Mr. "X" spoke both Spanish and English? 363 Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, I don't. I know he is a professor so it is possible that he spoke but Mr. "X" in this particular time was still in Cuba though, he wasn't in the United States. Chairman STOKES. OK. You knew Mr. "X" from the time you spent in Cuba, is that right? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I met him one time. Chairman STOKES. I see. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I didn't give him no money either. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, did you ever handle or carry poison pills to be used in the assassination Castro? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir, absolutely not. Chairman Stokes. Did Roselli every give you the poison pills. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Again, I want to read to you from the CIA Inspector General's report of 1967, pages 24 and 25: (Comment: The gangster may have had some influence on the choice of a means of assassination [Support Chief] says that in his very early discussions with the gangsters or more precisely Maheu's discussions with them, consideration was given to possible ways of accomplishing the mission. Apparently the Agency had first thought in terms of a typical gangland-style killing in which Castro would be gunned down. Giancana was flatly opposed to the use of firearms. He said that no one could be recruited to do the job because the chance of survival and escape would be negligible. Giancana stated a prefernece for a lethal pill that could be put into Castro's food or drink. Trafficante "Joe, the courier," was in touch with a disaffected Cuba official with access to Castro and presumably of a sort that would enable him to surreptitiously poison Castro * * * The gangsters said ["X"] had once been in a position to receive kick backs from the gambling interests, has since lost that source of income and needed the money.) Having heard what the Inspector General has said about this operation, would you in any way change your testimony? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Reading further from the same report, Mr. Trafficante, at page 27, late February-March 1961, "Roselli passed the pills to Trafficante. Roselli reported to [Support Chief] that the pills had been delivered [to "X"] in Cuba. ["X"] is understood to have kept the pills for a couple of weeks before returning them. According to the gangsters, ['X'] got cold feet. Having heard this portion of the inspector General's report, would you at this point change your testimony? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I did not give any pills to "X". I did not give any money to "X", I didn't see "X" any more since after I seen him in Cuba that on time, and I didn't receive no pills from Roselli, and I don't know what else to say about that. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, did you at any time receive any money for your participation in this situation? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. How was that, sir? Chairman STOKES. Did you at any time receive any money from anyone for your participation in the assassination-- Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Not a penny, no way, shape or form. Chairman STOKES. Tell us what your reason was for agreeing to act as interpreter in this situation. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, I thought I was helping the U.S. Government. That's what my reason was. And as far as the gambling and monopolies of this and that and all that trash about dope and prostitution, that's not true. If things were straightened out in Cuba, I would liked to have gone back there. If I could gamble, I 364 would gamble; if I couldn't gamble, I wouldn't gamble. But the reason was that I thought that it was not right for the Communists to have a base 90 miles from the United States. The same reason when the First and the Second World War, they call you to go to the draft board and sign up, I went and signed up. That's the reason. And we all like to make money. Chairman STOKES. I don't quite understand. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I mean, we all like to make money in case there was a thing I was doing it for money, for this and for that, about going back to Cuba and gamble and have casinos or cabarets, stuff like that. Chairman STOKES. In 1967, 1971, 1976, and 1977, those 4 years, columnist Jack Anderson wrote about the CIA-Mafia plots and the possibility that Castro decided to kill President Kennedy in retaliation. Mr. Anderson even contends in those articles that the same persons involved in the CIA-Mafia attempts on Castro's life were recruited by Castro to kill President Kennedy. The September 7, 1976 issue of the Washington Post contains one of Mr. Anderson's articles entitled, "Behind John F. Kennedy's Murder," which fully explains Mr. Anderson s position. I ask, Mr. Chairman, that at this point this article be marked as JFK exhibit F-409 and that it be entered into the record at this point. Mr. PREYER. Without objection, the exhibit marked F-409 is ordered into the record at this point. [JFK F-409 was marked and entered into the record and follows:] 365 JFK EXHIBIT F-409 Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, I want to read to you just two portions of the article I have just referred to, after which I will ask for your comment. According to Mr. Anderson and Mr. Whitten in this article, it says: Before he died, Roselli hinted to associates that he knew who had arranged President Kennedy's murder. It was the same conspirators, he suggested, whom he had recruited earlier to kill Cuban Premier Fidel Castro. By Roselli's cryptic account, Castro learned the identity of the underworld contacts in Havana who had been trying to knock him off. He believed, not altogether without basis, that President Kennedy was behind the plot. Then over in another section, it says: According to Roselli, Castro enlisted the same underworld elements whom he had caught plotting against him. They supposedly were Cubans from the old Trafficante organization. Working with Cuban intelligence, they allegedly lined up an exMarine sharpshooter, Lee Harvey Oswald, who had been active in the pro-Castro movement. According to Roselli's version, Oswald may have shot Kennedy or may have acted as a decoy while others ambushed him from closer range. When Oswald was picked 366 up, Roselli suggested the underworld conspirators feared he would crack and disclose information that might lead to them. This almost certainly would have brought a massive U.S. crackdown on the Mafia. So Jack Ruby was ordered to eliminate Oswald making it appear as an act of reprisal against the President's killer. At least this is how Roselli explained the tragedy in Dallas. Mr. Trafficante, do you have any knowledge of that? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No knowledge whatsoever. Chairman STOKES. Do you have any information concerning any retaliatory action by Mr. Castro? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Do you have any knowledge concerning any retaliatory action by Mr. Castro? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No sir. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us when was the last time you had seen Mr. Roselli prior to his death? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I would say 2, 3 weeks before his death. Chairman STOKES. And where was that? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. In Fort Lauderdale. Chairman STOKES. Was anyone else present? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. His sister and my wife. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us what you discussed? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Nothing. We didn't discuss nothing about Castro, that's for sure. Chairman STOKES. I believe you told us that you had known Sam Giancana for a long period of time. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I would say 10, 15 years. I had never had nothing to do with Sam Giancana; no business relation or either with Mr. Roselli. I never had no business relation with them either. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Giancana, prior to his death, when was the last time you had seen him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I would say 12, 13 years, I didn't see him for 12 or 13 years. I hadn't seen Mr. Roselli, I think, I seen him once from 1961 till the time that he moved to Florida with his sister, which was about 2 years before he got killed. I just seen him one time during that time. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, you have told us here today that your motivation for participating in the assassination of President Castro was your patriotism, your love for this country and your concerns about communism being 90 miles from our shores, is that correct? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. Were you at all motivated by the events which had taken place in Havana which caused you to lose your business interests? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. I have been a gambler all my life, and I'm used to taking chances, and it is a matter of time, it is not a matter of--it was forgotten. I doubt very much if it would have been the same again after Batista was gone. 367 Chairman STOKES. Did you ever inform any other people of the plot against Castro besides those who were involved in the actual plot? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Not that I remember. I don't think I did. Chairman STOKES. What is your knowledge as to whether Castro learned about the plot? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. My knowledge about Castro learned about the plot? Chairman STOKES. Yes, whether he learned about it. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I can't answer you that. I would be guessing. I don't know. Chairman STOKES. Now, at any other times, were you either directly or indirectly involved in assisting any anti-Castro groups in their activities against Castro? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, I wasn't. Chairman STOKES. Now, you have told us that you do know Mr. Bango, he was your attorney? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right? Chairman STOKES. And how long a period of time was he your attorney? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, he was for short period of time. While I was in jail, while I was in Trescornia in Havana. His brother, his brother is still--- I don't know if Mr. Bango is still alive, by the way, but his brother is Minister of Sports in Cuba under Castro today and that's a very improtant job under the Communist system. You know, he is in charge of the sports and the youth and the whole bit. Chairman STOKES. Did Mr. Bango ever represent you at any other time? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Bango traveling to Madrid, Spain, during the 1960's. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right, I went to visit him in Spain during the 1960's. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us about when in the sixties it was? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. What part? Chairman STOKES. What part of the 1960's. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Around 1966 or 1967. Chairman STOKES. Was this in Madrid? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Madrid, yeah. Chairman STOKES. And what was your purpose of going there? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, he had a purpose of--he had a fighter, some kind of a fighter that he was interested in promoting. And then I felt like going to Madrid, and I just went over there. Chairman STOKES. How long did you stay there? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I stayed there 10 days. When I got there, I got met by the--I left from Miami--when I got there I got met by the Spanish Secret Service or some kind of a service, and they had 12 people day under surveillance. I was constantly under surveillance from the minute I got there until the minute I left. They would park even in front of my door in the hotel. So there was the trip to Spain. Chairman STOKES. I see. 368 Mr. Trafficante, do you know the person AMLASH, a Cuban official involved in the CIA operation also called AMLASH which was designed to kill Castro? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. We refer to this individual also as AMLASH. During what years did you know AMLASH? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, I actually met him after the revolution in Cuba because he was, he had killed somebody there, some big official of the Batista government so he went to the mountains. And I met him after the revolution. When he come in, he was made a commandante or general, whatever you want to call it. Chairman STOKES. And after you met him, was a relationship established between the two of you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, just a hello and goodby, and that's it. Chairman STOKES. Did he ever represent your interests or assist you in any manner? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Did you know whether Castro was aware of the AMLASH plot prior to President Kennedy's death? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. Do you know if AMLASH knew Mr. Bango? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I'm sure he did. Chairman STOKES. And do you know the nature of their relationship? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. sir. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us whether or not you know whether AMLASH traveled to Madrid, Spain in either 1964,1965, or 1966? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, what I'm going to tell you now is what I read and you know, its been coming out, so I don't know that he traveled there or nothing. I found out later he had. Chairman STOKES. Do you know for what purpose he went there? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. What's that? Chairman STOKES. Do you know for what purpose he went there to Madrid? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. He was some kind of a diplomat. He was of stature enough to be able to travel to Madrid and Paris and all those places. In my opinion, he was not a communist. I never beleived that he was a Communist. I always believed sooner or later he would react against Castro. But as far as me having any knowledge or contact with him or my personal knowledge knowing he used to travel back and forth maybe Bango must have mentioned it to me or something like that, but I never did see him in Paris, in Madrid or anyplace. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, After January 1, 1962, and prior to November 22, 1963 did ou have contacts with any Cuban official concerning any business dealings? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Not that I remember. Cuban officials in Cuba, you mean? Chairman STOKES. Right, with Cuban officials in Cuba. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. 369 Chairman STOKES. The answer is no, sir; right? Mr. Trafficante, Mr. Aleman stated that you paid Castro's G-2 agents in the Miami area. Have you ever given any aid or assistance to individuals you know or suspected were working for Fidel Castro after January 1, 1962, and prior to November 22, 1963? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Absolutely not; never. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Aleman also stated to this committee that he has "no doubt" that there is affiliation between the Castro government and yourself. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. There's no affiliation whatsoever between Castro government and myself. There never has been. Chairman STOKES. Now, let us return for a moment to your detention in Trescornia. I understand you to say your wife has visited you there. Did any other persons visit you there? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, a lot of people visited me there, people that I knew in Cuba. Chairman STOKES. These would be friends of yours in Cuba who visited with you during that time? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. Were most of them people that had some involvement with you in the gambling operations? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. When people visited with you, can you tell us about that visiting room, would there be other people in that same room, other visitors visiting detainees? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Let me tell you, Mr. Stokes, this was like a camp. There was no--it was a minimum security place. They would let anybody come in. They would let anybody stay with us until 12 o'clock at night. We would cook, we would have food brought in, we would eat, we would drink and there would be, sometimes, the guards would come and sit down with us and eat. Some meals it was like one big happy family. Chairman SToKEs. It sounds like a resort area. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. It was. I really had a rest then, if you want to know the truth. I enjoyed it. It was the highest point in the whole Havana area. You could see the whole city. It was cool, too, in the evening. Chairman STOKES. Do you know a Mr. Meyer Panitz? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Who? Chairman STOKES. Meyer Panitz, P-a-n-i-t-z. Mr. GONzALEz. Is that P-a-n-, Mr. Chairman? Chairman STOKES. Yes, Mr. Gonzalez, P-a-n-i-t-z. First name, Meyer, M-e-y-e-r. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir, it don't ring a bell. Chairman STOKES. You did know Pedro and Martin Fox? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Pedro Fox, yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. Do you know whether the Fox brothers or any of the other operators tried to get their money out of Cuba during this period of time? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. All I know is that Mr. Martin Fox, who was the owner of the Tropicana and one of the richest men in Cuba, he died in the United States in the 1960's, I think, and he died completely broke. And Pedro Fox was working as a waiter and maitre d' in all the restaurants and hotels around Miami. 370 Chairman STOKES. If, during this period of time, any of these operators were able to get their money out of Cuba, are you aware of how they did it? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. You see--can I explain something? Chairman STOKES. Certainly, go ahead. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. You see, everybody that was in business in Cuba Castro started with the very, very rich and he knocked them out of the box so everybody would say, well, maybe he won't touch me. Then he started with the next in line. Meanwhile they still trying to do business and eventually he did it in a real way, then he would invite all the tourist agents and he was going to make a big tourists campaign to bring the people from all over the world to Cuba. He was going to do this, he was going to do that. The next time--meanwhile, the employees of these places would be taking over that business and they would run the business. And if you had a little money in the cage, you couldn't even go near the cage to get the money because they would report you right away. So everybody got fooled to a certain point. Because if you remember, he didn't declare he was a Communist until about 1962, 1963, some time like that--1961 or 1962. So there wasn't too many people that got the money out, unless they had it out. Chairman STOKES. I see. Thank you. Mr. Trafficante, did you know, while you were in Trescornia, a Britisher named John Wilson Hutson, who was detained along with you? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Let me tell you what used to happen. I vaguely remember some guy there that was kind of a little bit of a screwball. I don't know if it's him or not. Because there used to be all kinds of people they would bring into there; people that would have difficulty with the traveling papers. In. other words, they would get at the airport, then they didn't have a ticket to leave the country. So they would get them and bring them over there until they got the problems straightened out and continuously we would have different people coming in and out and staying for a few days and then leaving; coming, staying. So it could be possible that he was there, but if I was to see him now, I wouldn't remember none of these people. Chairman STOKES. Then if I understand you properly, you don't remember this precise individual, but it is possible--- Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right; it's possible that he was there. Chairman STOKES. Do you know a Lewis McWillie? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes, sir, I seen him around Havana a lot. Chairman STOKES. Can you recall when you first met him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. He was working at the Tropicana for Martin Fox. Chairman STOKES. Did you have any personal business dealings with Lewis McWillie? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Never had no personal business dealings. Chairman STOKES. Have you ever had occasion to talk with him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Ever since Cuba, I think I seen him one time in Vegas at his home. Somebody took me there, say I want to meet somebody from Havana that you know just for a few minutes. Chairman STOKES. During the period that you were detained at Trescornia, do you recall seeing Lewis McWillie visiting out there? 371 Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I don't recall it, but he might have come. He might have. Chairman STOKES. So if he was there visiting someone, you don't recall it? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. That's right, I don't recall it. It is possible that he did, but I don't recall it. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, did you ever know a Jack Ruby? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir, I never remember meeting Jack Ruby. Chairman STOKES. Never remember meeting him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Chairman STOKES. Are you aware it has been alleged that Jack Ruby visited with you while you were at Trescornia; have you heard that? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I've heard visiting me either. There was no reason for this man to visit me. I have never seen this man before. I have never been to Dallas; I never had no contact with him. I don't see why he was going to come and visit me. Chairman STOKES. Were you aware of any of the activities of a Jack Ruby? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. When you first met McWillie, can you tell us where that was? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I met him around Cuba someplace. Chairman STOKES. I am sorry. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I met him around Cuba in a casino someplace. Chairman STOKES. Did he ever visit you in your home, or did you ever visit him in his home? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir, the only time I think was one time in Vegas, like I told you I was there for a day or two in the 1960's. He was already working over there. And--- Chairman STOKES-In Vegas? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yeah, in Vegas. A fellow said he had already married a Cuban girl, or something like that. I seen him there just for a few minutes. That was the only time that I remember seeing him since the Cuban days. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, I want to ask you a question that is very important to this committee, and that is, did you have any foreknowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Absolutely not; no way. Chairman STOKES. Had you ever known or had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the day President Kennedy was assassinated? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Never had in my life. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, I want to. move into another area now of questioning. So that we put it in its proper context, I want to refer to an article in Parade magazine dated January 21, 1962, called The untold story: our Government's crackdown on organized crime, written by Jack Anderson and I just want to read two portions of the first page of what is a three-page article. The first paragraph starts out saying, "Organized crime is under attack. For the first time, the full forces of the Federal Government have been thrown into the battle against it."And then it goes on to make 372 further reference to organized crime and at page 2, it has the top 10 and in loth position is Santos Trafficante. Now, Mr. Trafficante, were you acquainted with the Justice Department's program during the 1960's of physical surveillance against particular individuals? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I was so acquainted with it that they lived with me for about 15 years. Chairman STOKES. That they lived with you for about 15 years? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. I suppose when you say that, you mean the term literally; is that right? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Night and day. Chairman STOKES. What type of surveillance were you under, do you know? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. All kinds, from the neighbors, from the hilltop, from the trees, from the cars, everything, any kind you could think of. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, do you know Carlos Marcello? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes, sir. Chairman STOKES. Tell us how you know him. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I know Carlos Marcello about 30 years. I met him in New Orleans. My father had an operation there, and I met him through my father, at the clinic, used to be the barracks in those days. Chairman STOKES. So over that period of time that you knew him, what was your personal relationship with him? Mr. Trafficante. Just friendship. No business, never had no business dealings with him; no way, shape or form. I see him once in a while when I go to New Orleans. He's come to Miami, I think, once to appear before a grand jury. I seen him there. Chairman STOKES. Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Mr. Marcello the physical surveillance situation? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I probably have. Chairman STOKES. Now, when I use the term "intense physical surveillance," you know what mean by that? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I know exactly what you mean. Chairman STOKES. That's the situation you described where they lived with you day and night? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. Now, can you tell us why they had you under surveillance? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I don't know, I guess they hoped to find out this empire I am supposed to have, all these businesses that I am supposed to have; all that big thing I am supposed to be. Chairman STOKES. That is your understanding, that's your full understanding? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. That's my understanding of it, yeah. Chairman STOKES. Did you ever have any discussion with anyone on how this surveillance could be stopped? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. I don't think I did. I'm sure that it couldn't be stopped, and I doubt it could be stopped. Chairman STOKES. I'm sorry, was that your full answer? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. What was that? Chairman STOKES. Was that your full answer? 373 Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yeah, I don't think it can be stopped. Chairman STOKES. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Marcello regarding president Kennedy or Attorney General Robert Kennedy? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I probably had it with him about Robert Kennedy. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us what that conversation what that conversation was? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. The conversation was that Bobby Kennedy had him deported illegally, put him on a plane with some marshals and dumped him in Guatemala. That was the conversation. Chairman STOKES. And by him, you are referring to Mr. Mar- cello? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Marcello right. Chairman STOKES. Obviously, then from what he said to you, he was pretty upset about that? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, I would be too, what happened to him would happen to me. Chairman STOKES. And is this what you said to him when the two of you talked about it? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. And you felt that Robert had mis- treated him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I think so, I still think he mistreated him. Chairman STOKES. Are you aware of any threats that Mr. Marcello made against President Kennedy or Attorney General Kennedy? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. How was that, Mr. Stokes? Chairman STOKES. As a result of these conversations you had with Mr. Marcello, the fact that he was upset. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. You were upset about it. Are you aware of any threats made by Mr. Marcello against either president Kennedy or Attorney General Kennedy? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir; no, no chance, no way. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Trafficante, do you know a man by the name of Jose Aleman? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, I met Mr. Aleman I think it was two or three times, perhaps. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us when you first met him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, I met him. I don't remember what year it was. It was in the early sixties. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us where you first met him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I met him at his-I think he had an apartment house or condominium or hotel or something. Chairman STOKES. And how did you happen to be at his home? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I met him through Macho Gener. Chairman STOKES. Mr. Gener took you there? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes. Chairman STOKES. And can you tell us the purpose of his taking you there? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. This fellow was in a financial bind. Mr. Aleman was having trouble financially. He wanted to raise some money because he was having trouble with his stepmother or some- 374 thing. So Macho liked Mr. Aleman. That's the reason that he took me there. Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us how much money Mr. Aleman needed? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, we never got to the point because when I got there, I found out--I don't even think he owned the property. I think the property belonged to his stepmother. It was like a clouded title in a property. Chairman STOKES. Well, was it Mr. Aleman wanted you to arrange a loan for him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. He thought maybe I could arrange a loan for him, yeah. Chairman STOKES. From whom were you going to arrange loan? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Well, at that particular time I was, my attoney , Mr. Frank Gargano, was an attorney for Jimmy Hoffa, thought maybe I could talk to him. I thought I could talk to my attorney to see if he could help Mr. Aleman. Chairman STOKES. And this would be a loan then from the Team- sters? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. Chairman STOKES. And had you ever arranged loans for other people through the Teamsters? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. You don't recall--is this your testimony--you don't recall the amount that Aleman asked for? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, I don't. Chairman STOKES. How many meetings took place between you and Mr. Aleman regarding this loan? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I would say the question of the loan was decided the first time I met him, but then I went there, I think I met him another couple of times. I don't remember meeting him in any restaurant like he testified yesterday. Maybe it could be, though, I am not saying. It could be but I don't--- Chairman STOKES. Is it your best recollection then that you probably met with him about three times? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Two or three times. Chairman STOKES. And Mr. Gener was present for the first meeting. Would he have been present for the other two meetings? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Mr. Gener was present at all the times that I spoke with Mr. Aleman. To the best of my recollection he was present. Chairman STOKES. And was anyone else present on those occasions? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. There was another gentleman present, can't--- Chairman STOKES. Do you know his name? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No. Well, I will tell you, his nickname was "Coco." That is how--this was a friend of Mr. Bango, this Coco. No, no, Darci, I read in the paper was supposed to be. Chairman STOKES. How about George Nobregas, was he present? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. George? Chairman STOKES. N-o-b-r-e-g-a-s? Nobregas? 375 Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Maybe that is him. Maybe that is the same guy. It was a dark complexioned guy. Chairman STOKES. How about Angelo Bruno, was he ever present? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. He was present one time, yes. Chairman STOKES. So that the record is clear, would you name everybody that you can recall being present? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. That is about it. I don't think there was any- body else. Chairman STOKES. OK. Just for the record, you name each of the persons you say were present. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Macho Gener, this fellow Coco, I think, Nobregas, whatever it is, Aleman, and Angelo Bruno, I think, was present one time. Chairman STOKES. And on each occasion was the purpose of the meeting to discuss Aleman's loan? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. Chairman STOKES. What was the purpose? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. The next time, one of the purposes I seen him after the loan, because like I told you, I think the matter of the loan, I think it was decided the first time I met him. Then he mentioned something about having some political influence in the Dominican Republic. So Mr. Bruno had talked to me that he was interested in getting some milk from the Dominican Republic, so I took him over there to meet Mr. Aleman so maybe they could get together. Mr. Aleman could facilitate this thing of the milk, to get an export license to export milk from the Dominican Republic. Chairman STOKES. Wasn't Aleman already in trouble financially? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Yes, but that has nothing to do with it. He could have made maybe some money with Mr. Bruno if he could get him the export license. To the best of my recollection now that is the way I think it was. Chairman STOKES. Was this the export deal that had something to do with milk? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Milk. Chairman STOKES. Was there anything else you discussed at that time? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. As far as the Kennedy situation, I want to tell you something now, Mr. Stokes. I am sure as I am sitting here that all the discussion I had with Mr. Aleman, that I never made the statement that Kennedy was going to get hit, because all the discussion I made with Mr. Aleman, as sure as I am sitting here , I spoke to him in Spanish. No reason for me to talk to him in English because I can speak Spanish fluently and he speaks Spanish, that is his language. There was no reason for me to tell him in l English that Kennedy is going to get hit. I deny that I made that statement. Chairman STOKES. When did you first become aware that he had made the statement? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. When it was first published in some newspaper, the Post or the Times, 2 or 3 years ago. Chairman STOKES. Were you aware of the fact that he had also told the FBI about it much earlier than that? 376 Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I read it in the same article, I think, that he was an FBI informant at that time. Chairman STOKES. Are you aware of the fact that he said that he had had a very involved discussion with you about politics? Did you ever discuss politics? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I don t remember having that discussion with him by himself, like he claims, like I read it in the paper. Chairman STOKES. When we take the statement that he attri- butes to you, when he says that you said he is not going to be reelected, and then when he says you said, No Jose, he is going to be hit." How could he in any way misstate a statement like that from anything else you have said to him? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Because, first of all, like I told you, I was speaking to him in Spanish, and in Spanish there was no way I could say Kennedy is going to get hit. I didn't say that. I might have told him he wasn't going to get reelected. Chairman STOKES. What were you basing that on? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I could have told him that he was not going to get reelected, not that Kennedy was going to get hit. I didn't say that. I might have told him he wasn't going to get reelected. Chairman STOKES. What were you basing that on? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I could have told him that he was not going to get reelected, not that Kennedy was going to get hit. Chairman STOKES. How did you know Kennedy was not going to get reelected? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I thought he wouldn't. Chairman STOKES. What had he done at that time that would cause him not to be reelected? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. At this particular time, first of all, there was the Cuban question where they had the trouble with the Bay of Pigs and all that, and they established the Cuban bases, and, if you recall, there was a lot people criticizing it. Chairman STOKES. Well, then-- Mr. TRAFFICANTE. That is the best way that I can say it, if I even told him that. Chairman STOKES. From what you have said here today, then, in all probability you did say to him no, Jose, he is not going to be reelected. Did you say that? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I might have told him that but I didn't tell tell him that Kennedy was going to get hit. See I still tell you that I spoke to Aleman in Spanish. There was no reason for me to speak to him in English because I doubt if 15 years ago he could speak better English than he does today. There was no reason for me--- Chairman STOKES. We can't hear you. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. There was no reason for me to speak to him in English with his broken English, when I can speak fluent Spanish, and he can speak fluent Spanish, and Gener, who was there all the time, couldn't understand English. The other guy, I doubt if he could understand English, too, Nobregas, whatever his name was, at that particular time. Chairman STOKES. Do you recall ever talking to Mr. Aleman about the problem Jimmy Hoffa was having with Attorney General Robert Kennedy? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I don't remember nothing about the discuss- ion. I couldn't swear to nothing that I talked about him, about Jimmy Hoffa. One thing I know for definite is I didn't tell him Kennedy was going to get hit, or that he interpreted it that way. That is not right and that is not the truth. That is all I can say. 377 Chairman STOKES. When you first learned that he had said this about you, did you contact anybody about it? ' Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir. I didn't pay no importance to it at that particular time. I never thought I would be here answering that question today or be here for the assassination of Kennedy, as far as that goes. Chairman STOKES. I am sorry, I didn't hear. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. I never thought at that time that I would be here today being questioned about the assassination of Kennedy. Chairman STOKES. Then, so I can summarize your testimony at this point, you did know Mr. Aleman, you did have meetings with Mr. Aleman, you probably discussed President Kennedy and his reelection or his inability to be reelected, but you did not make the statement he will be hit? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Right. I am sure I didn't. I am positive I didn't. There was no reason for me to say that. Chairman STOKES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no further questions. Mr. PREYER. If you will pardon us for a moment, I would like to confer with the members here. There are no further questions from the panel. Under the House rules, Mr. Trafficante, a witness at the conclusion of the questioning is entitled to make a statement for 5 minutes to explain his testimony or to clarify it or to make any sort of statement he may choose to make. At this time, do you care to say anything further to the committee? Mr. TRAFFICANTE. No, sir, your Honor, nothing. Mr. PREYER. Very well, the committee will excuse the witness at this time. Let me caution everyone in the hearing room to remain seated until the witness leaves the hearing room. You are excused, Mr. Trafficante. Mr. TRAFFICANTE. Thank you. Mr. PREYER. Thank you for being here. Mr. GONZALEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the exhibit. [Document handed to the clerk by Mr. Gonzalez.] Mr. GONZALEZ. This is the certified copy of the order. Mr. PREYER. We will have that immunity order which has previously been inserted in the record. The committee will take a brief 3-minute in-place recess at this time. We will resume very quickly. The committee stands in recess. [A short recess was taken.] Chairman STOKES. [now presiding]. The committee will come to order. The Chair recognizes Professor Blakey. Mr. BLAKEY. Mr. Chairman, the testimony of Santos Trafficante concludes that part of the presentation by the staff to the committee of the basic outlines of the committee's investigation into the possibility of organized. crime connection to the assassination of President Kennedy. As all can see from the testimony introduced, the question remains, was organized crime involved in a plot to assassinate President Kennedy? Did it have the motive, opportunity, and means to do so? 378 Obviously, the possibility cannot be dismissed, although it can hardly be said to have been established. At this point, it is, in your words, Mr. Chairman, perhaps only a little more than a "suspicion suspected," not a "fact found." The committee decided early in its investigation, as soon as it realized that a Mafia plot to assassinate the President warranted serious consideration, to assemble the most reliable information available on organized crime in the United States. The details of this phase of the committee's investigation will, of course, appear, hopefully in full, in its final report, a report that will consider the background of organized crime in America, the structure of the Mafia in the early 1960's, the effort by the Kennedy administration to suppress the mob, and the evidence that the assassination might have been undertaken in retaliation for those efforts. To scrutinize the possible role of organized crime in the assassination, the committee early brought on one of the country's leading experts on the subject. He is Ralph Salerno, whose career as an organized crime investigator with the New York City Police Department goes back to 1946. Mr. Salerno has since retired from the New York City Police Department and I would note that on the day of his retirement, the New York Times was moved to comment that he perhaps knew more about the Mafia than any nonmember in the United States. It would be appropriate at this time, Mr. Chairman, to call Ralph Salerno. Chairman STOKES. The committee calls Mr. Salerno. Please stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? TESTIMONY OF RALPH SALERNO Mr. SALERNO. I do. Chairman STOKES. You may be seated. The Chair recognizes counsel for the committee, Mr. Gary Cornwell. Mr. CORNWELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Salerno, when did you first become a consultant on organized crime to this committee? Mr. SALERNO. I began in late October or early November of last year. Mr. CORNWELL. Prior to that time, what experience or training had you had with respect to organized crime? Mr. SALERNO. I entered the New York City Police Department in mid-September of 1946. A planned 3-month program of training in the police academy was interrupted in November of 1946 when I became one of a small group of men who were interviewed and selected to be used in an undercover operation involving an organized crime assault which resulted in murder in New York City. From that time throughout the remaining 20 years that I spent with the New York City Police Department, my entire career I was engaged in investigations relating to organized crime. Mr. CORNWELL. At the time of your retirement, what was your position? 379 Mr. SALERNO. I retired as a supervisor of detectives in the Central Investigation Bureau, which is the organized crime investigation unit of the New York City Police Department. Mr. CORNWELL. During your tenure with the New York City Police Department, did you ever have an occasion to discuss organized crime with any underworld members? Mr. SALERNO. Yes. That was something that during those years was a common occurrence. We would bring in people so involved into our office for conversations, discussions, interviews, if you will. We would interview them in the hallways of the courthouses, when there was a court appearance that we had caused to occur. We would talk to them in the street. We would talk to them in their neighborhoods, we would talk to them in their homes. So that I can say that literally I have had hundreds of such conversations. Mr. CORNWELL. During that period did you have a chance to review conversations of such persons that may have been obtained by electronic surveillance? Mr. SALERNO. Yes. The State of New York has had legal authority for the issuance of ex parte orders for electronic surveillance since 1939. That was a very useful technique which was widely used in the New York City Police Department during the 20 years that I have served. Mr. CORNWELL. After the 20 years of experience investigating organized crime with the New York City Police Department, you retired in 1966. After that point, did you continue to be in any way involved with the subject matter of organized crime? Mr. SALERNO. Yes; all of my professional work in the intervening 12 years has been with this subject. I worked largely as a consultant to various bodies. I did return to a more active role in 1973 and 1974. In those 2 years I became the chief racket investigator in the district attorney's office of New York County, one of the five in New York City, and I served in that capacity for 2 years. My remaining time has been as a consultant. Part of that time is given largely to the training of other law enforcement officers on all levels of government, through some 35 States of the United States and in four Canadian provinces, and in the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. In addition to that, I have served as a consultant for government and nongovernment bodies addressing the subject of organized crime. Mr. CORNWELL. Please give us a brief resume of the committees or commissions that you have served as a consultant at any time since 1966? Mr. SALERNO. Yes, sir. I served as consultant to the President's Commission on Violence. My work there was a paper on the use of violence and fear in organized crime activities and matters. I was a consultant to the President's Commission on Campus Unrest. My work there dealt largely with police intelligence procedures and how they were utilized. I worked for the National Council on Crime and Delinquency from 1967 through 1969. In 1970 I spent a year consulting with the Hudson Institute in Westchester County, N.Y., which is a policy research center. My work there was as part of a study on the problem of narcotics in the State of New York. 380 I spent 1976 as a consultant to the Citizens Campaign Against Bootlegged Cigarettes. My work there was in describing the problem caused by the almost total establishment of an illegal distribution system for smuggled or stolen, certainly untaxed, cigarettes and the invasion of the legitimate distribution network in that industry all along the eastern seaboard. Mr. CORNWELL. In addition to your experiences as a consultant, have you ever qualified as an expert on organized crime in the courts? Mr. SALERNO. Yes; I have been qualified as an expert for testimony in Federal courts, in the courts of some five States, and these have been in matters of criminal cases and in civil litigation. I have been accepted as an expert for testimony concerning organized crime in two Canadian provinces, the Province of Alberta and I have testified in the Province of Quebec. Mr. CORNWELL. You also served at one time on the President's Crime Commission, is that correct? Mr. SALERNO. Yes; I served on the Organized Crime Task Force of the President's Crime Commission while still a member of the New York City Police Department. That was in 1966. Mr. CORNWELL. And in addition to testifying as an expert on organized crime in the various Federal and State courts you mentioned, have you ever testified on that subject before any legislative bodies? Mr. SALERNO. Yes; more than one-half dozen times before legislative committees of the Congress of the United States, in both Houses. I have testified before legislative bodies of some 10 States. Mr. CORNWELL. Would you simply name some of those? Mr. SALERNO. Beg pardon? Mr. CORNWELL. Would you simply identify some of those legislative bodies for us? Mr. SALERNO. Yes, sir. While still with the New York City Police Department, three detectives and myself were assigned with the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, chaired by Senator John McClellan. Over a period of months we prepared for it a presentation on organized crime. The specific assignment that I had from the New York City Police Department was to look into all matters that would be revealed by Joseph Valachi in his testimony before that Senate committee. We were to independently investigate in an attempt to prove or disprove anything that he might have said that we could gather evidence concerning. I have also appeared before a committee chaired by Senator Smathers, which was looking into the problem of loansharking. I have appeared twice before House committees chaired by Mr. Dante Fascell. I appeared before the Crime Committee that was looking into organized crime, chaired by Mr. Pepper. I have appeared in legislative bodies in the States of Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, California, Indiana, and Ohio. Mr. CORNWELL. Have you ever written any books or articles on this subject? Mr. SALERNO. Yes; I wrote a book which was entitled, "The Crime Confederation," published by Doubleday in 1969. The subtitle of that 381 book is "La Cosa Nostra and Other Allied Operations in Organized Crime." I have done a number of magazine articles for public press as well as for professional journals. Mr. CORNWELL. Mr. Salerno, this committee has received evidence from and concerning Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante. Are you familiar with those individuals? Mr. SALERNO. Yes; I am familiar with them and I have been for some 21 years. Mr. CORNWELL. The committee, in part, has received testimony of Mr. Trafficante. For example, among his testimony, he stated that he did not know Jack Ruby or Lee Harvey Oswald, and his testimony, although not directly but at least indirectly, perhaps, bore on the question of whether or not he or his associates may have had the motive or opportunity or means to assassinate the President. Would you tell us whether or not you have any information which might shed light upon the questions that we just noted? Mr. SALERNO. Yes. I think I have a considerable amount of evidence for this committee to consider in trying to evaluate both method, means, all three--methods, means or certainly motive on the part of Mr. Trafficante or people known to be associated with him .... Mr. CORNWELL. Tell us what you know about those two individuals which might shed some light upon that subject. Mr. SALERNO. Well, I indicated that I became aware of Mr. Trafficante some 21 years ago. That particular occurrence was one that took place in the State of New York on November 14, 1957, which I note is the eve of Mr. Trafficante's birthday. He gave it as November 15. At that time, the New York State Police discovered a meeting of a large number of people, some 63 were actually identified at that time. The people involved knew that they had not completely identified all of the people present. If I may, I would like to make use of an exhibit at this time to be able to discuss the Apalachin meeting with you. Mr. CORNWELL. May we have JFK exhibit F-547A displayed? Mr. Chairman, may we have JFK F-547A admitted into the record at this time? Chairman STOKES. Without objection, it may be entered into the record. [JFK exhibit F-547A follows:] 382 Apalachin Meeting, November 14, 1957 JFK EXHIBIT F-547A Mr. SALERNO. That is a map of the United States, Mr. Cornwell, which indicates the areas from which people who were known to have artended came from--northern California, southern California, State of Arizona, the Rocky Mountain State of Colorado, Missouri, Dallas, Tex., Tampa, Fla., the Middle West, the New England States, the Middle Atlantic States, so that quite candidly it can be labeled a national meeting. At that time, a great deal of attention was given to it, in an analysis of what was there in an attempt to try to discover why they might have been there. Many of the people who were there fit the phrase "known to the police." They had criminal arrest records, they had criminal conviction records. That record since that time, 21 years ago, has become even more extensive, and I think it is a fair characterization today to say that there is very little doubt that that was a national underworld meeting. One of the people identified at the location in Apalachin, N.Y., had given the name of Louie Santos and he gave an address of a hotel in Havana. In trying to pursue exactly who this person was, two of the officers of the New York State Police made an identification of Mr. Santos Trafficante from photographs of him as being the person who had given the name of Louie Santos. So that we can then see that he has associated with all of the people who were there. People such as Vito Genovese, a man who died in a Federal prison in the 9th year of a 15-year term for dealing in heroin. Mr. Carmine Galante was at that meeting. He was sentenced to 15 years for dealing in heroin. Mr. John Ormento, who was at that meeting, is still serving a 40-year sentence for dealing in heroin. Mr. Trafficante, in his testimony today, indicated that he was a partner of Joseph Stassi in a casino in Havana. Mr. Stassi has been sentenced to Federal prison for dealing in heroin. Mr. Trafficante here, in his testimony, acknowledges a long-time friendship over a period of years, one in which the people involved could have great confidence in them- 383 selves with Sam Giancana. Mr. Sam Giancana has been the victim of a homicide and has been killed. Mr. Trafficante indicated in his testimony here this morning that he knew John Roselli, that he had dinner with that gentleman 3 weeks before he was killed, his body dismembered and stuffed into an oil drum and thrown into the sea only to come up in Biscayne Bay. My unit in the New York City Police Department on September 22, 1966, interrupted a luncheon in a restaurant known as Stella in queens County, N.Y. Mr. Marcello was present at that luncheon. Mr. Trafficante was present at that luncheon. I would like to at this time introduce an exhibit of the seating arrangement of that particular meeting, if I may. Mr. CORNWELL. I would like to use that exhibit. I would like to have you describe that in more detail in a moment. Let me ask you before we go to the exhibit, if we might, you have indicated this was the point in time in which your attention was focused upon Mr. Trafficante. Mr. Chairman, I request JFK exhibit F-619, a photograph of Mr. Trafficante, be entered into the record. Chairman STOKES. Without objection, so ordered. [JFK exhibit F-619 follows:] 384 JFK EXHIBIT F-619 Mr. CORNWELL. What subsequently; did you determine to be the nature of Mr. Trafficante's relationships with these kinds of people that you have just named? Mr. SALERNO. Certainly his presence with them classifies him as an associate of such persons. He goes into business with them in a gambling casino. He will be in New York quite some distance from his home with an interesting assemblage of people that we know a great deal about. He is at an underworld meeting, a national underworld meeting in New York so that we came, in the New York City Police Department, to certainly agree with diverse other law enforcement agencies that Mr. Trafficante was an organized crime leader, the leader of a criminal organization in the State of Florida. Mr. CORNWELL. You state that he is the leader of an organized crime organization in Florida. Before we go further, would you tell us what that term means in the context that you have used it? What is organized crime? 385 Mr. SALERNO. Organized crime sometimes has many different meanings to different people. There have been some successful attempts in some legal definitions of the phrase "organized crime." The Congress of the United States, in the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970, very clearly defined what would be considered Federal violations of law in terms of organized crime gambling. In that instance, the Congress set forth the standard of five or more people being involved, the volume of the gambling reaching or exceeding $2,000 per day and requiring that evidence show that the particular gambling operation was in existence for 30 days or more. That is organized crime gambling in its legal definition. In one professional conference that I have attended, organized crime was described as a self-perpetuating, continuing criminal conspiracy for profit and for power using fear and corruption and seeking immunity from law. I think one of the best ways to describe organized crime or to have it understood is in a way that was described by scholars at Cornell Law School, in an institute where prosecutors from around the United States are trained. In that instance, they set forth three ways in which organized crime can manifest itself and be recognized. The descriptions given are: Organized crime as a venture; organized crime as an enterprise; organized crime as a syndicate. And the different ways in which. the manifestation comes are these: An organized crime enterprise is a day-to-day, ongoing business that is illegal in its nature because it is supplying some illegal service or some illegal product. Two examples of that would be a sizable gambling operation that would meet the Federal definition as legally defined on a day-today basis. Offering the illegal service of accepting wagers, a group of criminals who would conspire to do so on an ongoing basis, supply narcotics to procure it, to cut it down to a street level quantity and then enter it into a distribution system. That would be an organized crime enterprise. Organized crime can also involve itself as a syndicate, a criminal syndicate. As a syndicate, organized crime will exercise various forms of control which are not unlike those of Government. They will set standards. The payoff price on the numbers shall be this and it shall not be higher and it shall not be lower and they impose that standard on their own group and on others in an area where they exercise a sphere of influence. They will collect taxes, if you will, although the legal definition of that collection of taxes would be extortion, but they are playing a quasi-government role. You can also have an organized crime venture, a single occurrence which, per se, is not organized crime. Bank robbery. Not every bank robbery can be described as organized crime; but where the members of an organized crime syndicate will either inspire, will set the plans for and then participate in the profits from that bank robbery, that particular bank robbery would be an organized crime venture. I think, Mr. Cornwell, I have an even better example for you of an organized crime venture. When Mr. Trafficante joined with Mr. Giancana and joined with Mr. Roselli and joined with representatives in the CIA in a plot to kill Premier Castro, that was an organized crime venture, a single occurrence. 386 Mr. CORNWELL. Which of the types of organized crime that you just described is it that Santos Trafficante and Carlos Marcello are associated with? Mr. SALERNO. They are leaders of an organized crime syndicate, each of them, in their home areas. I have some evidence that I would like to offer you now. This is a conversation that was overheard in which Mr. Santos Trafficante was involved and upon which no questions to him have been based. This was found in the FBI file which now is labeled, La Cosa Nostra file. The conversation took place in a restaurant in Florida in 1963 and the quote of Mr. Trafficante reads thus: Let me tell you this. This is what happens to me. Now, I don't give a (obscene) about the S. & G. I know when I'm beat, you understand? I got a numbers office in Orlando. They grab everybody, forty or fifty people. Forty or Fifty thousand in bond. They have no evidence, but when they get through, it costs thousands. I got another office in St. Cloud, Fla. You can't even find St. Cloud on the (obscene) map, but the (obscene)"G" found it. Kennedy's right-hand man, he goes through the (obscene) nigger town. Must have been 2,000 niggers, and makes a (obscene) big raid over there. Just a start, any (obscene) place that they found a phone connection in there from Tampa. * * * Mr. Trafficante in that conversation is describing his interest in an organized crime enterprise. Mr. CORNWELL. What, if any, real evidence is there that the syndicate that you say Marcello and Trafficante run in their respective areas, exists much less that they are members of it. Mr. SALERNO. I think at this date the evidence is overwhelming. It is certainly more than sufficient to convince the prudent man that we speak of in legal and court terminology. I think in order to give you an understanding of that, I just have to dip back for a moment, briefly, into history. The particular criminal syndicates that Mr. Marcello and Mr. Trafficante belong to are syndicates which have set a requirement that membership shall be limited to people who are of Italian extraction on both sides of their lineage. In sociological studies that have been made, we do note that the overwhelming majority of population, immigrants who have come to the United States from Italy, came from the southern part of that nation. That's the agricultural part of the nation, the more economically deprived. So that's where we got most of our Italian population. I think there is a very long and a very clear record that many of those people made great contributions to their new country, the United States. Unfortunately, in mass migration of that type, some people will come in who have a criminal background. We know historically from scholarly studies, that in the southern part of Italy, three secret criminal societies exist in the area around Naples, it had the name of Camora, in what is the heel and the toe of the Italian boot, if you look at a map of Italy. That is the region of Calabria. They had a similar criminal organization very closely akin to the Camora. It had the name of the Honored Society, although the Italian police today will refer to that organization back there in Italy as the Calabrian Mafia today. The word Mafia itself was the name given to criminal societies on the island of Sicily. Some of these people connected with those societies came into the United 387 States. They began to continue their criminal career. It is almost natural that their first victims were their own fellow Italian immi- grants. There's an apocryphal story of the son of one such being accused of that fact, that his father had victimized his own fellow Italian immigrants. His response is said to have been, "Well, of course it had to have been that way. My father didn't know how to say stick um up in English. Who else could he rob? One of the things that played a role, one of the things that played an important role, I believe was the national prohibition era. It called for the expansion in the number of people who would be required to either help import, to manufacture, to distribute and sell so that those Italian immigrants were widely accepted by like criminals who had come from other backgrounds, whether they were Jewish gangs or the Irish gangs that we have established existed back in that time period. In his testimony in 1963, Joseph Valachi told us that at the end of the prohibition era, in the years 1930 and 1931, among the diverse Italian groups, there were differences that resulted in gang wars, but certainly by 1932, they had all joined together in a single Italian segment for organized crime. Therefore, it's technically, perhaps, incorrect to use the word Mafia. Some people hold that that can only be applied to Sicilians. The group has others than Sicilians in it and that is the organization that the FBI has docu- mented is now called La Cosa Nostra. I would like to point out, I have a copy of an affidavit that was sworn to by an FBI man in the courts of Ohio just last year in December of 1977. This affidavit by special agent Michael Kehoe was one of a number that were filed in court proceedings which resulted in convictions for homicide. The sworn document indicates very clearly that that particular organized crime syndicate as still being extant in the area sur- rounding Cleveland, I am sorry to say, Mr. Stokes. There are a series of killings there in a gang war, and he indicates terminology and facts, indicating that what I have been describing to you is still something that is current. I suggest perhaps, Mr. Cornwell, I can make that part of the record. Mr. CORNWELL We have a copy of that marked for identification as JFK exhibit F-553, Mr. Chairman. May we have that entered into the record at this time? Chairman STOKES. Without objection, it may be entered into the record at this time. [JFK exhibit F-553 was marked for identification and entered into the record.] 388 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 389 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 390 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 391 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 392 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 393 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 394 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 395 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 396 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 397 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 398 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 399 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 400 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 401 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 402 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 403 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 404 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 405 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 406 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 407 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 408 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 409 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 410 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 411 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 412 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 413 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 414 JFK EXHIBIT F-553 cont. 415 Mr. CORNWELL. Much of what you told us, Mr. Salerno, relates to the prohibition era, which, of course, we may be familiar with from television, Al Capone, Elliot Ness, that sort of thing. You also mentioned the FBI just last year filed an affidavit indicating the existence then of the same phenomenon. However, we are most interested in the 1960's, the early 1960's. What evidence is there during that period that the La Cosa Nostra was a viable entity? Mr. SALERNO. Well, the Apalachin meeting that I mentioned certainly raised some 1,000 questions in the minds of the public, the press, in the minds of the police and in the minds of other Government officials. I think in the 20 years since that occurrence we have answered many of those questions. One of the reactions that took place in Government as a result of the Apalachin meet ing was a reaction within the FBI. At the suggestion of Mr. Clyde Tolson, Director Hoover commissioned their research unit to prepare two monographs, one on the Mafia in Sicily; the second on the Mafia within the United States. Mr. Hoover also caused to be created within the FBI something that came to be known as the top hoodlum program. The first targets were the people at the Apalachin meeting, but it was not restricted to them; it was expanded to include many of their criminal associates. That was an ongoing program in which the various field offices of the FBI throughout the United States were required to assign personnel to keep abreast of these criminals, their activities, of course, with a point of view of possible prosecution, but certainly with an intelligence gathering operation to find out more about them, what they were doing and what could be done about it. Mr. CORNWELL. By 1963, had the FBI reached any conclusions as to the scope of La Cosa Nostra on a national level? Mr. SALERNO. Yes; very definitely. The top hoodlum program in 1961 with the advent of the Kennedy administration under the leadership of Robert Kennedy as the Attorney General, somewhat escalated programs throughout the Department of Justice and in other Federal agencies. In the files of the FBI, you will note that it is at that time period where the top hoodlum program becomes something else, it is then labeled the criminal intelligence program. There is in the file under the date of June 21, 1961, a directive from Mr. Hoover to 10 field offices of the FBI to create special squads where the total assignments of the agents will be to the development of informants, people who can tell them about this particular criminal organization. The FBI had, under its top hoodlum program in 1959, begun the installation of some electronic surveillances. The files of the FBI reflect that on such an electronic surveillance where the target was Sam Giancana in Chicago that he is making some reference back to this Apalachin meeting. He indicates that there is in existence a small control group that establishes policy and makes decisions. The electronic surveillance indicates that he, himself, is a member of that group. He uses the term "the commission," to describe that group. He names a number of other people who have membership in the commission. That caused the opening of a file in the FBI which was initially labeled "The Commission, et al." That is the same file that I have made reference to under its current title La 416 Cosa Nostra file. That file was begun in 1959. So we have some 20 years of evidence gathering, a great deal of escalation, more elec- tronic surveillances in 1961 than there may have been prior to that. Certainly the application of greater resources of manpower are manifest in the files of the FBI. Confidential sources of information in FBI files are labeled by numbers, CH-T-1. CH designates the field office of Chicago. T-1 would be an important and principal source of information in that file in the Chicago area. You can see a great expansion of the T numbers, the number of sources that the FBI is getting informa- tion from in that file expands greatly in 1961. So that by 1963, the FBI has a very complete and a very accurate picture of who is doing what and where. they are doing it. I would suggest to you, and for the consideration of this committee, that the picture that the FBI had and could have in 1963 is greater than that which we probably have today. Mr. CORNWELL. You have caused an exhibit to be made so that you can illustrate the conclusions that the FBI had reached by 1963; is that correct? Mr. SALERNO Yes; I do. Mr. CORNWELL. We have marked that as JFK exhibit F-547B for identification-May we have that displayed and admitted into the record at this time, Mr. Chairman? Chairman STOKES. Without objection, it may be entered into the record. [JFK exhibit F-547B was marked for identification and entered into the record.] JFK EXHIBIT F-547B 417 Mr. SALERNO. Mr. Cornwell, could we have the other one the La Stella meeting? Mr. CORNWELL. May we have JFK exhibit F-550 also admitted into the record at this time? Chairman STOKES. Without objection, it will be entered into the record at this point. [JFK exhibit F-550 was admitted into the record.] 418 JFK EXHIBIT F-550 Mr. CORNWELL. Perhaps, Mr. Salerno, if you could, would you explain what conclusions the FBI came to by 1963 based upon the 419 extensive program of surveillance, physical, and electronic that you just described? Mr. SALERNO. Yes; this is the map of the United States. The various locations show where the FBI established that organized crime families, which is the term used for the particular subdivisions within this criminal syndicate and representing in themselves criminal. syndicates. The people whose names and photographs appear across the top are the people serving on the control body known as the commission in 1963. Thomas Lucchese in New York City; Joseph Zerilli in Detroit, Raymond Patriarca in Providence; Joseph Bonnano of New York City; Stefano Maggadino of Buffalo; Carlo Gambino of New York City; Sam Giancana of Chicago; Vito Genovese of New York City; and Mr. Trafficante's associate, Angelo Bruno of Philadelphia. The other photos are those of family leaders. You will note Mr. Carlos Marcello here in New Orleans. Mr. Santos Trafficante given as the leader of La Cosa Nostra family in Tampa. I call to your attention the fact. that every one of the areas represented at the Apalachin meeting is an area from whence they came. Mr. Cerrito of San Jose is known to have been at the Apalachin meeting. Mr. Licata's predecessor in Los Angeles, De Simone, was at that meeting. Mr. Colletti of Colorado was at that meeting. Mr. Civella of Kansas City was at that meeting. Mr. Civello of Dallas was at that meeting. Mr. Giardano of St. Louis was at that meeting. Mr. Marcello was not identified as being at that meeting. Later FBI intelligence indicates that he was represented in that instance by his brother whose photograph is on the next exhibit. Mr. Trafficante, using the name of Louis Santos was at that meeting. Mr. Scalish was at that meeting. Mr. La Rocca was at that meeting. Mr. Bufalino was at that meeting. Mr. Colombo's predecessor, dead by 1963, was at that meeting. Mr. Bruno's predecessor, Joseph Ida of Philadelphia was at that meeting, but shortly thereafter he couldn't take the heat and he decided to get out of the kitchen and moved to Italy for permanent residence, therefore, making a seat open and Mr. Bruno succeeded him in that position. Mr. Genovese was at that meeting. Mr. Giancana described his attendance at that meeting; Mr. Gambino was at that meeting; Mr. Maggadino of Buffalo, although that is some distance from Apalachin, N.Y., his sphere of influence reaches there and he was considered to be the host of that particular meeting. Mr. Bonnano was at that meeting. Mr. Patriarca was at that meeting. Mr. Zerilli never got to the meeting. He got as far as Binghamton, N.Y., where the FBI established that he rented an automobile. It was his drivers license that was used, it was his signature that rented the automobile. He probably heard of the aborting of the meeting while en route and did not return to Binghamton but returned the car to a Hertz office in Brooklyn and then went back home. So there is no question that it is this organization that was having a meeting back in 1957, by 1963, that's an established fact that I don't consider debatable. They established that there were families, that this was the ruling body of the commission, that those families that do not have a leader who is on the commission can have their interests represented for them before the commission. 420 The Milwaukee family, Madison Rockford are really considered to be satellites to the Chicago organization. So it is the leader from Chicago who would represent their interests. On the far west coast we know that the southern California family would be represented on the commission through Mr. Lucchese; San Francisco and San Jose represented on the commission by Mr. Bonnano. The FBI's knowledge was very very, very complete. Their establishment of the group, hierarchical structure and methodology was complete. I mentioned the La Stella restaurant. I would like to point out for the committee that the seating arrangement here-there were, of course. no seating cards on that luncheon table--yet, the seating arrangement is formal as it could be if the Chief of Protocol for the State Department had, in fact, put place cards there. Mr. Mike Miranda is at the top--- Mr. CORNWELL. Mr. Salem before you tell us about the particular seating arrangement. the committee may not be familiar with the background of that meeting and how it was discovered and the extent it was discovered. Would you just give them a brief background? Mr. SALERNO. I think that meeting was discovered and how it was discovered is a very fine example of good police intelligence work. Mr. Lucchese one of the leaders of one of the five families located in the city of New York had been stricken and taken ill. We were able to learn that the prognosis was very bad for him, that he had an inoperable brain cancer and could not be expected to live more than 3 to 6 months, which turned out to be the case in fact. The assignment given within my unit was "OK, if what we believe is true and he is in fact, the leader of a Cosa Nostra family, what should happen next?"( We felt that we could determine that some people would have to do different things, the people who ordinarily, the very limited number of people who would meet with and report to the family) (leader would now have to report to someone else. So one intelligence target was who will that next person be. And we were able to come up with a very well educated guess which, over a period of years was a sound one. We established that Mr. Carmine Tramunti would be the leader of that family. I might add Mr. Tramunti is now in Federal prison doing a 15-year term for dealing in heroin. The second prognosis that was made, the projection from analysis was that if, as the FBI and other law enforcement agencies had determined, that the methodology is that when one family leader passes on or is no longer the family leader, that the person who will be nominated from within his family group must have the advice and consent of this board before that nomination is, in fact, confirmed, that there would have to be a meeting